Rifleman Archive
Thread: what exactly made (master) riflemen overpowered?
Also as a side note on the pistoleer issue. With the advent of the sonic blaster from the geonosian cave I'm suprised pistoleers aren't all over this. Well I guess the smart ones are, but they aren't the ones whining either.
My main point though is that we are one of the few professions that work like it's supposed to. If they would fix the others instead of nerfing some thenthey wouldn't have to worry about usbeing overpowered anymore.
Neclonmite wrote:
1 thing:
Same thing that made BH overpowered at release: +speed
It is completely stupid to be able to reduce your speed by better than 80% when delay is one of the main balancing factors in both weapons and special moves.
To just completely toss delay and expect it to remain balanced is rediculous. I think all weapons should have a hard cap on speed of around +70 OR more reasonably, the cap should be the same as the weapon natural delay... Seriously we're talking about the recharge time on the weapon. What about your skill with the weapon alters technology so that it recharges faster? That makes no sense.
I don't care how good you are, hand someone a slow weapon (bolt action rifle) and a fast weapon (glock) and they will NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot just as fast with the bolt action as they do with the glock (unless they're trying to shoot slower with the glock). But in this game that is ignored. Technology and the laws of physics (as we know them in star wars) bend around someone's +speed.
I could see speed reducing your specials to the same rate as regular fire. And that's about it.
Message Edited by Neclonmite on 03-02-2004 01:31 PM
Then give us a high damage "bolt action" rifle. According to starwars lore the T21 is a heavy repeating blaster, which I would say would be on par with a modern M-60. Hits hard AND has a high rate of fire. As far as the pistol being a faster weapon than a rifle... have you ever shot a semi auto/full auto rifle? I'm pretty sure they have at least the same if not higher rate of fire than your glock. With more accuracy too since the gun weighs more so there is less recoil.
UWSkeletor wrote:
I don't think it matters if you say that Rifleman is fixed and the other professions are broken. I don't think anyone would argue that in game today, Rifleman is overpowered compared to the other professions, and this wasn't always the case. What made it so? A combinations of things in my opinion, and all of the changes went into effect at the same time.
Increased accuracy, got rid of the 2.5x damage multiplier but kept good melee defense. It's like they were trying to solve the same problem with multiple fixes, that caused us to become too good. If they would have just fixed one or the other it probably would not have been such a problem.
So that took away a couple of our weaknesses. Now our only main weakness is HAM costs and no kd defense, both which are pretty easily fixed. You can drink some brandy, eat some canape, HAM costs are negated. If you think you are getting kd too much, we only use what, 92 skill points? You can easily pick up one line in fencer or pistoleer to grab some kd defense.
So currently, our lack of any real weakness is what makes us overpowered. This I blame on the devs trying to fix the same problem by changing too many things and changing them drastically.
Was our accuracy too poor before? Probably a little bit, but now we have what? the second best accuracy of any single profession? For a class that can hit as hard and as fast as we do, we should not have such good accuracy.
Was the 2.5x damage modifier annoying? Yes, but they take it away, still leaving the good melee defense and we become very good against melee, something that should be our weakness.
Some of us knew back then that if they removed that 2.5x damage, we'd have little to justify the power that comes at master, and it's true. If anyone has an argument that says something other than "The other professions are broken, we are working" I'd like to hear it, because as the game is today, I can't argue that we are not overpowered.
I use a template that RP's a hunter. I used 232 points to get there. Taking KD defense is not in the cards for me.Tell me how each profession balances singualarly FIRST before we talk of "cross dabbling balance" to shore up inadiquacies. Some of us cannot do that. If we continue back on this path will I be forced to use pistols to be an effiecent hunter? I'll be back to square one again and I won't bother trying to reconstitute my toon to hunt again... I'll just be chosing a game that does make sense.
If you have to use x2.5 damage to justify theprofession you are not thinking. I'm sorry but this is a crutch. First, lets see how the defenses were intended in the cambat revamp (i.e. it's not all done yet). Second, when the stacking is fixed those guys will switch to the VK more often instead of holding the rifle all day. Also, pistoleers may well get dual wield soon, making 2 weapons fire each second. THAT my friends, is a better way.
Just say 'NO' to nerf. I think we need to develop a 12-step program for the devs 
Fred_Skinner wrote:
I use a template that RP's a hunter. I used 232 points to get there. Taking KD defense is not in the cards for me.Tell me how each profession balances singualarly FIRST before we talk of "cross dabbling balance" to shore up inadiquacies. Some of us cannot do that. If we continue back on this path will I be forced to use pistols to be an effiecent hunter? I'll be back to square one again and I won't bother trying to reconstitute my toon to hunt again... I'll just be chosing a game that does make sense.
If you have to use x2.5 damage to justify theprofession you are not thinking. I'm sorry but this is a crutch. First, lets see how the defenses were intended in the cambat revamp (i.e. it's not all done yet). Second, when the stacking is fixed those guys will switch to the VK more often instead of holding the rifle all day. Also, pistoleers may well get dual wield soon, making 2 weapons fire each second. THAT my friends, is a better way.
Just say 'NO' to nerf. I think we need to develop a 12-step program for the devs
I think you missed my point. So you RP a hunter, that's fine. Your one weakness then is defense vs kd or defense vs states.
What I was trying to get at was, do those small weaknesses actually balance out with the huge benefits we get? In my mind, no they don't. Now before all of our buffs I think our weaknesses were too big compared to the benefits, but when they upped all of our concerns they shifted the balance to the other side. So they either have to shave off some of the benefits or add some more weaknesses.
The 2.5x damage was not a crutch, it was a balancing factor.It was supposed to balance out our power with the fact that if you hit us in melee range we were dead. Now we are not balanced. We have alot of offensive power, with little weaknesses.
We'll see what they actually plan for stacking, butcurrently they are only capping dodge/counterattack/block. That won't affect a rifleman defense stacker at all.I think most people who take rifle's for their "defense stack" usually use those rifles because of the great damage we can do at all ranges. Whyworry about kiting if you can pound them from anywhere?
If they just add more power to every other profession, then they have to go and re-change all of the creatures to make things more challenging. So let's see, are they going to choose that route? Or are they going to choose the route of least work? Something will get changed, whether it's our speed, defenses, damage, who knows, but something will get changed. Unfortunately if what people have seen is correct, they will do the same thing when they buffed us except in the opposite degree when they nerf us. They will take away too many benefits and add too many weaknesses, when they really should just do one at a time.
Riflemen is overpowered because the other Professions that used to be overpowering were all Nerfed.
I.E., remember Pistoleers were #1 because of Disarm and PistolWhip?
It's just an endless cycle of nerf. Who knows which Profession will be the most overpowering when the Rifleman nerf hits. Might even be Pikeman.
Then everyone will cry for the Pikeman nerf like they did with Pistoleer,CH,Commando,Rifleman, etc etc.
UWSkeletor wrote:
Fred_Skinner wrote:
I use a template that RP's a hunter. I used 232 points to get there. Taking KD defense is not in the cards for me.Tell me how each profession balances singualarly FIRST before we talk of "cross dabbling balance" to shore up inadiquacies. Some of us cannot do that. If we continue back on this path will I be forced to use pistols to be an effiecent hunter? I'll be back to square one again and I won't bother trying to reconstitute my toon to hunt again... I'll just be chosing a game that does make sense.
If you have to use x2.5 damage to justify theprofession you are not thinking. I'm sorry but this is a crutch. First, lets see how the defenses were intended in the cambat revamp (i.e. it's not all done yet). Second, when the stacking is fixed those guys will switch to the VK more often instead of holding the rifle all day. Also, pistoleers may well get dual wield soon, making 2 weapons fire each second. THAT my friends, is a better way.
Just say 'NO' to nerf. I think we need to develop a 12-step program for the devs
I think you missed my point. So you RP a hunter, that's fine. Your one weakness then is defense vs kd or defense vs states.
What I was trying to get at was, do those small weaknesses actually balance out with the huge benefits we get? In my mind, no they don't. Now before all of our buffs I think our weaknesses were too big compared to the benefits, but when they upped all of our concerns they shifted the balance to the other side. So they either have to shave off some of the benefits or add some more weaknesses.
The 2.5x damage was not a crutch, it was a balancing factor.It was supposed to balance out our power with the fact that if you hit us in melee range we were dead. Now we are not balanced. We have alot of offensive power, with little weaknesses.
My point is x2.5 damage is NOT the way to do this. Think of another way. The reason I call it a "crutch" is that is all many folks can think of howto do it. Experience requirements, moving certs, ect are also valid choices and others we might need to brainstorm on. Fixating on the old damage mods causes problems in other places and we have all been painfully through them... and remember the fit the BH and Commandos pitched when it came to them. 
Also keep in mind there ARE bugs to defenses now that will effect us greatly when fixed. It is far too premature to call in extra tweaking until those fixes are assessed. I'm betting the weaknesses the devs intended for publish 6 that did not make it in will help"balance" things as you say.
I got your point, but I think you have forgotten the "little people" who are not master and have to claw their way here to Master. It took me from publish till about 3 weeks ago so I will be very empithetic to them... Master should mean something and far too many professions it does not. In that respect RIfleman stands apart.
We'll see what they actually plan for stacking, butcurrently they are only capping dodge/counterattack/block. That won't affect a rifleman defense stacker at all.I think most people who take rifle's for their "defense stack" usually use those rifles because of the great damage we can do at all ranges. Whyworry about kiting if you can pound them from anywhere?
This must be a PvP phenominon becuase I die, even now, buffed and PSG wielding. Mind you, it takes more then 2-3 hits but it is less then my TKA friend can endure. As it should be. I feel thier equil now, and before I skittish as a Durni in a heard of Gronda. I would not go out unless 3 peeps was in my group. I can now solo white (carefully, mind you) again, Like I could as a swordsman. Perhaps the PvP end should be looked at and let me to getting all that meat your doctors need to buff you.
Short form: not me, I still have to kite.
Actually they did say there were adding power to the higher end stuff. Just not the ones a CH can tame
If they just add more power to every other profession, then they have to go and re-change all of the creatures to make things more challenging. So let's see, are they going to choose that route? Or are they going to choose the route of least work? Something will get changed, whether it's our speed, defenses, damage, who knows, but something will get changed. Unfortunately if what people have seen is correct, they will do the same thing when they buffed us except in the opposite degree when they nerf us. They will take away too many benefits and add too many weaknesses, when they really should just do one at a time.
All the critters have been changed. Besides, too much work or no, I prefer fighting for a quality product. If the Pistoleers get Dual Wield and we get nerf and then have to fight tooth and nail to get the prof back again (eating many MORE months of waiting for a proper tool to use for hunting) I might not have it in me to stick around. If there must be a nerf, let's not go to the knee-jerk stuff that has so far been the norm. Let's put some thought into this. For once.They overcompensated our defenses and accuracy. And buffs.
I honestly feel that buffs killed PvP. They made it so that you can't make a dent in the health and action pools before the person can get it stimmed away making them infinite in length meanwhile mind is able to go down even when fully buffed. It may take a while but it is faster then attacking the health bar most of the time. People recognized this and so all the mind hitting profs get blamed and are deemed uber. Meanwhile they go and get their christmas colored stats pushed over 3000 and wonder why noone bothers to target them.
Oh and all the bugs that help us rather then hurt us.
Evark-Xitov wrote:
90 rifle speed makes rifleman overpowered, it allows you to fire5 second rifles at 1.0....on the other hand, swordsman, which in my opinion is the same type of idea but melee only gets 75
Rifleman are the only class which gets 90 speed, and they have ap0-ap3 weapons
I don't want to quote your entire post or this will get to huge. I'm willing to listen to any alternatives that will help balance us. You say let's put some thought into this, yet I don't see any suggestions from you on what could help. I think the dev's screwed up though when they fixed us. When fixing I think you should change one thing at a time and see what effect it has.
For example, we gave these issues:
- 2.5x damage modifier is too high, we get killed way too fast by a melee opponent (and almost all mobs use melee)
- Our accuracy is too poor, when we can only last a couple of hits from a mob, we can't afford to miss so much.
Now the Devs saw this and said, ok, we'll get rid of that damage modifier, buff up their defenses, and increase their accuracy, that sounds good.
I mean, did they even put any thought into what would happen? We had people here warning them what would happen, butthey did notlisten.
I agree that I think thought should be put into how they can balance us, and I agree we should wait to see how the fixes to the "toHit" modifiers actually work before changing other things. If that doesn't fix it, I think they could either get rid of our melee defense, or add in some kind of damage modifier, perhaps something more bareable like 1.5x. I just hope they do these things piece by piece, instead of one swooping change that lowers our accuracy and speed, lowers our defense, and makes it easier for melee to hit us.
Also, of course rifleman will still kite, it's the smart thing to do. What I was saying was why will people switch back to their VK's and go back to being kited? Why wouldn't you keep the rifle and kite the other person or shoot it out, but that's just me. I'm not a very good melee pvp'er, I stick to kiting unless I'm forced in a building then I'll try out my melee skills.
Mostly, we are in agreement. We don't want a knee-jerk nerf. My major concern is they will nerf us in one huge swoop, consisting of numerous nerfs, instead of trying out one little nerf at a time to see how it works.
RueKursk wrote:
Buffs, Armor, the removal of the 2.5x damage, and defense stacking.
A jawa ion rifle +flushing shot+ head shotsor mind poison are the only ways to take down a buffed composite wearing defense stacker.
Master Riflemen used to be a profession with a high degree of difficulty that could return even greater performance in the hands of an experienced PvPer. Now its just the quickest way to take down buffed composite wearers. Its sad really.
Wow...just wow.That is almost exactly the same way I feel towards all of PvP. Buffs killed it and turned us into a FoTM.
I don't agree that the 2.5x modifier being removed overpowered us, the removal plus our defense being raised, and a bug raising it even higher certainly helped though. I'd hope that gets rectified without doing all the other nasty things they are talking about but, well I'm not expecting much happiness.
This is why everyone and their mom is a rifleman or CM now.
Message Edited by RueKursk on 03-02-2004 07:35 PM