Rifleman Archive
Thread: what exactly made (master) riflemen overpowered?
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HARP00N
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:26 am
#1
IMO I think it was the new foods, especially brandy. Although they cost a lot they offset our mind costs so people think that we can always spam specials like that.
Locky-1138
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:47 am
#3
the fact that...
Carbiner is broken,
pistoleer sucks,
Pikeman is broken,
TK are idiots (they let us kite them all over the place),
people stack defence to hell and then take rifle to deal damage,
Bounty hunters are whiners,
CM can mind poison for horifying amounts of damage (rifle finishes people off),
mele THINK they should rule over ranged profs even from 64m in an open field
to-hit Bug (being fixed) AOE Bug (hope its being fixed)
People are Whiners
unlike every other prof (except CM and TKM, note the other 2 professions getting the most "Nerf" calls) we can actualy kill some one who is buffed to hell, armored, stoned, and stuffed (so long as they are not dodge stackers)
some one once said, if a chef incaped some 1337 d00d with a fish, they would come to the forums and cry "nerf macrel"
on the "mind buffs make us over powerd" note, have you ever seen a master rifleman try to kill some one who is Dancer/Musician/Muon/Brandy buffed? its just silly, they regenerate there mind faster than you can deal damage to it. the only reason these people eventualy die is because a CM mercefuly lobbs poison on them that, at 300damage per tic eventualy gets them to a point when a rifleman can 1 shot there puny little mind.
rifleman = good, TKM = good, CM = bugged, everything else = broken
Dynastar
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:02 am
#4
Because people refuse to buy Stun protection helmets or spend the 200k per crate for Brandy like we are.
Their ignorance kills them, but we inform them of it.
Barb-Wire
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:07 am
#5
rifle is not overpowered it is like the only profession taht works as designed for the most part.
OneHung
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:16 am
#6
It is some of the only professions that work, if you think abouit it the only things that need to be fixed in rifleman is a few shots, and name change. If you grind to make the best template and don't think of rifleman on the way then I don't feel sorry for you. I have dueld many people who know what they are doing (stun helmets, comp armor). And it was one-sided (their favor). No remorse though.
Telakyte
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:27 am
#7
Agreed. Riflemen aren't overpowered. We just work. I'm a rifle CM. Why? Because honestly, as a rifleman alone I can't kill anyone (unless they're stupid enough to pvp unbuffed). Nowadays the only real way to kill someone is for me to be mean and lob poison at that mind that's overly buffed, and hope to heaven they're not tka/rifle because they'll wreck my mind ranged or not. Then just meditate the poison off.
Oh well. *Goes back to get more poison for those silly buffed peoples*
Eaca
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:36 am
#8
To answer the orriginal question, what "fixed" the rifleman profession was fixing buff stacking. Before then our HAM costs were just too high for us to be useful at all. Now that you can get doc buffs, food and drink buffs, spice, and entertainer buffs and have them all stack properly and notcause your secondaries to revert to 1/1 till you logged out for 20 minutes. Rifleman is the class most dependant on working buffs. I realize that a number of other classes have high HAM costs, all the other professions that have high HAM's take health or action, which have been historically easy to buff. Rifles, with thier 70-110+ mind costs and big mind multipliers were hardest hit by the buff stacking bug as it takes several different buffs to get your mind high enough to where it didn't matter. This was impossible prior to the buff stack fix.
UWSkeletor
Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:18 am
#9
I don't think it matters if you say that Rifleman is fixed and the other professions are broken. I don't think anyone would argue that in game today, Rifleman is overpowered compared to the other professions, and this wasn't always the case. What made it so? A combinations of things in my opinion, and all of the changes went into effect at the same time.
Increased accuracy, got rid of the 2.5x damage multiplier but kept good melee defense. It's like they were trying to solve the same problem with multiple fixes, that caused us to become too good. If they would have just fixed one or the other it probably would not have been such a problem.
So that took away a couple of our weaknesses. Now our only main weakness is HAM costs and no kd defense, both which are pretty easily fixed. You can drink some brandy, eat some canape, HAM costs are negated. If you think you are getting kd too much, we only use what, 92 skill points? You can easily pick up one line in fencer or pistoleer to grab some kd defense.
So currently, our lack of any real weakness is what makes us overpowered. This I blame on the devs trying to fix the same problem by changing too many things and changing them drastically.
Was our accuracy too poor before? Probably a little bit, but now we have what? the second best accuracy of any single profession? For a class that can hit as hard and as fast as we do, we should not have such good accuracy.
Was the 2.5x damage modifier annoying? Yes, but they take it away, still leaving the good melee defense and we become very good against melee, something that should be our weakness.
Some of us knew back then that if they removed that 2.5x damage, we'd have little to justify the power that comes at master, and it's true. If anyone has an argument that says something other than "The other professions are broken, we are working" I'd like to hear it, because as the game is today, I can't argue that we are not overpowered.
Malfeas00
Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:41 am
#10
You know, I'm buying crates of brandy for like.. 28k for a case of 25. What is wrong with you ppl? 
Eaca
Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:53 am
#11
Malfeas00 wrote:
You know, I'm buying crates of brandy for like.. 28k for a case of 25. What is wrong with you ppl?
You must be giving your chef a little something extra under the table... Even non BE brandy I think it costs more to make it than that...
Geddeo
Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:22 pm
#12
I think UWSkeletor summed it up pretty good. Most of the masters knew we were asking for too much in our top 5 list and were woried about it back then, but we were outnumbered at that time by novices who were having a hard time leveling up rifleman. Those novices were right at the time, rifleman was one of the hardest professions to master because of the 2.5x dmg multiplier and our lack of melee defence. Throw in the fact that novices missed 35% of their shots and could only shoot once every 5 seconds I can see why we asked for so much in our top 5. What is amazing is the devs actually listened and gave us everything we asked for. We got more accuracy, more melee defence and the removal of the 2.5x multiplier (I think we asked for 1 or the other, but got both). Throw in the bug that makes us harder to hit when holding a rifle and you can see valid arguments for a nerf.
What I think is funny is that this is probably not the reason people are calling for nerfs on us. Most people think we are overpowered because of 1 weapon, the jawa ion rifle. Its ability to cut through non stun layered armor allowed us to kill players that other professions couldn't even move the HAM bars on. Most people here come up with the argument "buy stun layered armor then", but I think that argument is just going to make this game worse. Have you seen a carbiner take on somebody in full 80% composites? Even with the medium AP laser carbine they can't do enough dmg to offset the regen rate of a fully buffed toon. Before they could knock down and get the 2x dmg and make some progress, but now it sucks.
Its even worse for a pistoleer who isn't smart enough to buy a decent tangle pistol (I'm supprised how many of them are out there). Most of the time they hit the target for 20dmg. How are they supposed to kill somebody with a 4000 health bar while dealing 20-60dmg a shot? They then watch us bust out a jawa Ion rifle and take out the heavily armored foe in no time and get jelous. We take down so easily what they find impossible to kill. I would be upset too. But is stun layered armor the answer?
Stun layer armor will just make it so no ranged player will be able to kill an armored opponent. Armor that can resist everything 80% combined with 4k+ ham. How do you kill that? Get lucky and find a hole in the armor? What happens when they fix all the holes? If they fix the AR/AP system to work right then the T21 will take the place of the jawa and pistoleers will be pissed off again and scream for another nerf. Maybe its just me, but it seems obvious that they wanted riflemen to take the roll of killing armored opponents because they gave us High AP, but if they make it so that everybody and their mom can get and wear the best armor without any negative effects, and we are the only group specifically designed to kill armored opponents, then what is the point of being any other profession?
Sorry if I missed any spelling errors or typos, I was in a hurry.
What I think is funny is that this is probably not the reason people are calling for nerfs on us. Most people think we are overpowered because of 1 weapon, the jawa ion rifle. Its ability to cut through non stun layered armor allowed us to kill players that other professions couldn't even move the HAM bars on. Most people here come up with the argument "buy stun layered armor then", but I think that argument is just going to make this game worse. Have you seen a carbiner take on somebody in full 80% composites? Even with the medium AP laser carbine they can't do enough dmg to offset the regen rate of a fully buffed toon. Before they could knock down and get the 2x dmg and make some progress, but now it sucks.
Its even worse for a pistoleer who isn't smart enough to buy a decent tangle pistol (I'm supprised how many of them are out there). Most of the time they hit the target for 20dmg. How are they supposed to kill somebody with a 4000 health bar while dealing 20-60dmg a shot? They then watch us bust out a jawa Ion rifle and take out the heavily armored foe in no time and get jelous. We take down so easily what they find impossible to kill. I would be upset too. But is stun layered armor the answer?
Stun layer armor will just make it so no ranged player will be able to kill an armored opponent. Armor that can resist everything 80% combined with 4k+ ham. How do you kill that? Get lucky and find a hole in the armor? What happens when they fix all the holes? If they fix the AR/AP system to work right then the T21 will take the place of the jawa and pistoleers will be pissed off again and scream for another nerf. Maybe its just me, but it seems obvious that they wanted riflemen to take the roll of killing armored opponents because they gave us High AP, but if they make it so that everybody and their mom can get and wear the best armor without any negative effects, and we are the only group specifically designed to kill armored opponents, then what is the point of being any other profession?
Sorry if I missed any spelling errors or typos, I was in a hurry.
Neclonmite
Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:29 pm
#13
1 thing:
Same thing that made BH overpowered at release: +speed
It is completely stupid to be able to reduce your speed by better than 80% when delay is one of the main balancing factors in both weapons and special moves.
To just completely toss delay and expect it to remain balanced is rediculous. I think all weapons should have a hard cap on speed of around +70 OR more reasonably, the cap should be the same as the weapon natural delay... Seriously we're talking about the recharge time on the weapon. What about your skill with the weapon alters technology so that it recharges faster? That makes no sense.
I don't care how good you are, hand someone a slow weapon (bolt action rifle) and a fast weapon (glock) and they will NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot just as fast with the bolt action as they do with the glock (unless they're trying to shoot slower with the glock). But in this game that is ignored. Technology and the laws of physics (as we know them in star wars) bend around someone's +speed.
I could see speed reducing your specials to the same rate as regular fire. And that's about it.
Message Edited by Neclonmite on 03-02-2004 01:31 PM
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