Rifleman Archive
Thread: The range mod posts in Corre Forums
Anyweays, these 2 posts can pretty much some the entire post up. This first one is by the Pistoleer Correspondant who is naturally defending his right to be a God.
I thought I wrote this once..must have goofed, I don't see it here.
Anyway.
Aldeon,
I really think you should focus on rifleman rather than the "nerf pistol user" campaign you've embarked on. Pistoleers are in the can right now, you probably fight bounty hunters and confuse the two. One is the best PvP profession, the other has issues.
The problem is, if you put in the 3 second cap for rifleman, and dont give us a range advantage, no matter how much you icnrease our damage we are dead. The amount of shots a pistoleer can get off in that 3 seconds will be 3-6 shots depending on if you make it .5 or 1 second cap.
This hasn't even happened yet. No one thinks that boosting pistol DPS by 2x, and lowering rifleto 1/3, is a fix that will actually take place, and if it did, it too would need to be fixed. No one had huge issues with pistol damage at low speeds, it was only relatively speaking, at very high speeds (85+ range) when the wheels started flying off. So no, a change that drastically increases pistol/carbine damage in relation to rifles is obviously not something anyone thinks is good. How about we propose alternative solutions or show clearly, with numbers, what a master rifle vs master pistol would look like, at those speed caps. I think it would be MUCH more constructive than trying to ask for changes to a profession that neither wants it, nor needs it, most notably, not even the rifle profession you help communicate with. Can you invest just a LITTLE energy in propsing either speed fixes or rifle fixes rather than hard capping range of a profession you don't even play? Because I promise, pistoleers are NOT your problem.
And I will tell you right now, Im not going to last 6 eye shots, let alone 6 any other pistol shots with the pistols there getting now. There pistols are comparing to T21s besides AR, since AR doesnt work. Becuase Krayt tissues are 100 percent more effective on pistols then they are on any Rifle. You need 4-5 tissues to compare to the upgrade of a pistol from 1 tissue.
First, you are talking about Bounty Hunters with scatter pistols and eyeshot. I also fight BHs with eyeshot. It takes about 12-20 eyeshots to kill me, really not sure what you're doing wrong (probably not wearing a helmet, and probably dont have equilibrium or spice, but I digress). Bounty Hunters are better pistol users than pistoleers, which sucks for us, but don't get the two of us confused. We don't get eyeshot, we don't get scatters.
But please note, laser rifles are better on average than the T21 anyway, so use that as yourstarting point (80-400 AR2 laser rifles are not uncommon). Krayt tissues are NOT 100% MORE EFFECTIVE ON PISTOLS. You simply keep trying to say pistols have advantages, without knowing what you are talking about. What pistol. The FWG5? Buddy, it's AR0, it does -50% damage on ANY armor. That's right, make a 100-300 FWG5 and it does 50-150 on you. That's pathetic, it's scout blaster damage.You are trying to confuse the devs, but you don'tconfuse me. Wait, I know, you meant the DX2 pistol, which has PB range, AR1, and horrible stats. Well, here's a good one for you, that pathetic pistol takes about 4 tissues to make, just like the T21 you are trying to use for comparison. Did youknow that? You aren'tconfusing me still. And you know what our stats do? instead of 100-150 they JUMP to 120-180. Oh no, that's almost as good as a non-krayt scatter pistol. See why pistoleers ARE SCREWED, just as you feel you are? Yes, scatters can be krayt enhanced from 100-170 to over 210 max damage, but that's Bounty Hunters, and you know..they are in "god mode" already. Please don't spread things like this to the devs when clearly, as I show above, it's not the case.
Pistols are out there with 100-300 damage becuase of tissues, and there all over the place becuase people with 3 AT-STs love to farm them. While T-21s still remain at 100-350.
You mean YOUR T21 stays at 100-350? Again, first get a laser rifle,powered up and sliced, max damage, you can have a 120-700 laser rifle. Yeah, insane, I know,and the devs thought the T21 was the only issue. But 100-300, that's an FWG5, and that's 50-150 on armor.We already went over that. And clearly as I show above, you too, just as anyone can, can purchase or farm to craft your T21 (or laser rifle, you know, that more effective PvP gun) using 4 tissues, exactly as the pistoleer DX2 requires. Farming with pets and ATSTs, yeah, I agree, that's dumb that some get to do this, while others cannot, but that's a different thread.
If we were to gain a range advantage we would have a chance, becuase with styles a Master Pistoleer does not miss at 60 meters, unless I run around. Wich then I miss a whole lot. I just dont think rifleman should be forced to run around, go prone, take cover at 64 meters to gain a range advantage. We should naturally be able to stand at max range and a pistoleer miss 70 percent of the time. Wich is why I think at max ranges they should only be allowed to use base attacks becuase they miss alot using base, while with styles there 90 percent accurate.
Have a chance?I think you are thinking up a doomsday scenario that has not even happened yet. There has not been a change yet!!!Right now you shoot your laser rifle (better than T21) every second, for 2000+ damage in an area of effect using flusing volley, and it drops a stun as well. That's quite interesting. Nothing has changed yet, you cannot possible need XYZ to "stand a chance" when the current situation has you firing every second, any rifle, with any special.
On another side note, you cant really xpect rifleman to go into cover in PvP. With 64 meters max range, someone can close that in nearly 3 seconds, so in the one shot we get we have to stand up then and begin running. They will close the range becuase at short range we can no longer shoot, the only way your gonig to get rifleman to go into cover is give us more range, or give us God Mode in it
No MMORPG I know of is designed around the "dueling" scenario you describe. Most, indeed, have lightweight, hard hitting ranged classes, like say, oh, casters, that are fragile, but need tanks/distractions in a fight..and when they DO get them, and they stay at range and attack, they are >> the other ranged attackers. wow, sounds startlingly similar. I do know you prefer to run at top speed with your rifle and spam specials and expect to be accurate, but I've shown you how you have to use your ideal range carefully with a rifle. You know, that reminds me, have you looked into that at all? I really suggest you try to help out rifles/rifleman and figure out what's working and what's not, and suggest fixes on those things. My guess, looking at my graphs of rifle accuracy, is that you are either supposed to use the right rifle, for the right situation, or possible, a few rifles, could have their negative accuracy modifier at long range, lowered by around 1/2. At long range your rifle stats, some of them anyway, are close to as bad as pistols, you do know that.
But you aren't telling the whole story. In a situation that you CAN go prone and fire unhindered, you have incredible damage output, can hit mind pool, with higher damage weapons, effectively, at long range. When you are in a melee situation, well, you personally, you just unequip your rifle, and use master TKA skills. Wow, best of both worlds! I think instead, they should remove the damage you take from melee, improve your accuracy so you're good running at any long range, and then we can all play rifleman since there would be 0 reason to play anything else.
God mode....classic. And don't expect me not to continue to point out errors and inconsistencies in the wild tales I read, especially when they center around pistoleers, who need just as much or more help than rifles. actually, you almost got me again, right now pistols are in BAD shape, yet no patch has gone in that actually affects rifles negatively just now...you're theorizing on the "speed" change, that even you pointed out to me months back, seemed wrong. Interesting.
I sent a PM to you asking for you email so I can send you the graphs, I really think you'll find them interesting.
This is my post, I had done a qoute to make it easier, so my text ended up red.
I really think you should focus on rifleman rather than the "nerf pistol user" campaign you've embarked on. Pistoleers are in the can right now, you probably fight bounty hunters and confuse the two. One is the best PvP profession, the other has issues.
This is all assuming the speed cap is gonig in. I said in the begining if you change the speed you need to change range mods. Otherwise you will see alot less rifleman then there already are and pistoleer numbers will jump once again.
This hasn't even happened yet. No one thinks that boosting pistol DPS by 2x, and lowering rifleto 1/3, is a fix that will actually take place, and if it did, it too would need to be fixed. No one had huge issues with pistol damage at low speeds, it was only relatively speaking, at very high speeds (85+ range) when the wheels started flying off. So no, a change that drastically increases pistol/carbine damage in relation to rifles is obviously not something anyone thinks is good. How about we propose alternative solutions or show clearly, with numbers, what a master rifle vs master pistol would look like, at those speed caps. I think it would be MUCH more constructive than trying to ask for changes to a profession that neither wants it, nor needs it, most notably, not even the rifle profession you help communicate with. Can you invest just a LITTLE energy in propsing either speed fixes or rifle fixes rather than hard capping range of a profession you don't even play? Because I promise, pistoleers are NOT your problem.
Hard capping is an alternative to increasing max range wich has been said cannot be done do to connection issues and AI pathing. Its not a hard cap, its a styles cap, a hard cap would mean you cant shoot at 32 meters or less no matter what. This is a matter for rifleman, every rifleman wants the range advantage. We deserve it, as one of the rifleman said we are a long range class in a short range world.
First, you are talking about Bounty Hunters with scatter pistols and eyeshot. I also fight BHs with eyeshot. It takes about 12-20 eyeshots to kill me, really not sure what you're doing wrong (probably not wearing a helmet, and probably dont have equilibrium or spice, but I digress). Bounty Hunters are better pistol users than pistoleers, which sucks for us, but don't get the two of us confused. We don't get eyeshot, we don't get scatters.
But please note, laser rifles are better on average than the T21 anyway, so use that as yourstarting point (80-400 AR2 laser rifles are not uncommon). Krayt tissues are NOT 100% MORE EFFECTIVE ON PISTOLS. You simply keep trying to say pistols have advantages, without knowing what you are talking about. What pistol. The FWG5? Buddy, it's AR0, it does -50% damage on ANY armor. That's right, make a 100-300 FWG5 and it does 50-150 on you. That's pathetic, it's scout blaster damage.You are trying to confuse the devs, but you don'tconfuse me. Wait, I know, you meant the DX2 pistol, which has PB range, AR1, and horrible stats. Well, here's a good one for you, that pathetic pistol takes about 4 tissues to make, just like the T21 you are trying to use for comparison. Did youknow that? You aren'tconfusing me still. And you know what our stats do? instead of 100-150 they JUMP to 120-180. Oh no, that's almost as good as a non-krayt scatter pistol. See why pistoleers ARE SCREWED, just as you feel you are? Yes, scatters can be krayt enhanced from 100-170 to over 210 max damage, but that's Bounty Hunters, and you know..they are in "god mode" already. Please don't spread things like this to the devs when clearly, as I show above, it's not the case.
A bounty hunters average shot is 250, 12-20 shots? That would make your mind stat 3000-5000. Wear a helmet? Until they fix armor ratings no one will wear armor. No one does let alone a rifleman cant afford to wear armor becuase of the huge HAM costs. A spice with its downside wont work, becuase thensomeone walks up to you on your downside and shoots you a few times and your dead.And Im sorry not everyone gets equilibium.A Laser Rifle does not get 100-700, the best types are35-650, just around that range, with 80 mind costs. Wich come around to near 200 Mind costs with 500 focus. Pistols are out there with 100-300 damage becuase of tissues, and there all over the place becuase people with 3 AT-STs love to farm them. While T-21s still remain at 100-350.
You mean YOUR T21 stays at 100-350? Again, first get a laser rifle,powered up and sliced, max damage, you can have a 120-700 laser rifle. Yeah, insane, I know,and the devs thought the T21 was the only issue. But 100-300, that's an FWG5, and that's 50-150 on armor.We already went over that. And clearly as I show above, you too, just as anyone can, can purchase or farm to craft your T21 (or laser rifle, you know, that more effective PvP gun) using 4 tissues, exactly as the pistoleer DX2 requires. Farming with pets and ATSTs, yeah, I agree, that's dumb that some get to do this, while others cannot, but that's a different thread.
Read this thread - http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=weaponsmith&message.id=11099&highlight=krayt+tissues#M11099
"the best weapon result i've had off the top of my head is an fwg5, that came out 48-211 1.6 this is using less than optimal materials but all advanced parts.
it would take a total of 11 identical tissue samples to make a t21, soI wouldn't expect many weaponsmiths to be willing to make them for anything approaching a reasonable price (unless you supplied the said 11 units)and considering it's a flat bonus it seems best applied to pistols anyway."
Have a chance?I think you are thinking up a doomsday scenario that has not even happened yet. There has not been a change yet!!!Right now you shoot your laser rifle (better than T21) every second, for 2000+ damage in an area of effect using flusing volley, and it drops a stun as well. That's quite interesting. Nothing has changed yet, you cannot possible need XYZ to "stand a chance" when the current situation has you firing every second, any rifle, with any special.
A Master Rifleman shoots once every 2 seconds with a laser rifle, a master rifleman with master marksment shoots once every second with almost all rifles. However if they put in the 3 second hard cap, then they need to give us a range advantage. I can care less how they do it, I wa suggesting a way instead of maknig it so they increase max range for rifleman. But we deserver a range advantage.
No MMORPG I know of is designed around the "dueling" scenario you describe. Most, indeed, have lightweight, hard hitting ranged classes, like say, oh, casters, that are fragile, but need tanks/distractions in a fight..and when they DO get them, and they stay at range and attack, they are >> the other ranged attackers. wow, sounds startlingly similar. I do know you prefer to run at top speed with your rifle and spam specials and expect to be accurate, but I've shown you how you have to use your ideal range carefully with a rifle. You know, that reminds me, have you looked into that at all? I really suggest you try to help out rifles/rifleman and figure out what's working and what's not, and suggest fixes on those things. My guess, looking at my graphs of rifle accuracy, is that you are either supposed to use the right rifle, for the right situation, or possible, a few rifles, could have their negative accuracy modifier at long range, lowered by around 1/2. At long range your rifle stats, some of them anyway, are close to as bad as pistols, you do know that.
But you aren't telling the whole story. In a situation that you CAN go prone and fire unhindered, you have incredible damage output, can hit mind pool, with higher damage weapons, effectively, at long range. When you are in a melee situation, well, you personally, you just unequip your rifle, and use master TKA skills. Wow, best of both worlds! I think instead, they should remove the damage you take from melee, improve your accuracy so you're good running at any long range, and then we can all play rifleman since there would be 0 reason to play anything else.
God mode....classic. And don't expect me not to continue to point out errors and inconsistencies in the wild tales I read, especially when they center around pistoleers, who need just as much or more help than rifles. actually, you almost got me again, right now pistols are in BAD shape, yet no patch has gone in that actually affects rifles negatively just now...you're theorizing on the "speed" change, that even you pointed out to me months back, seemed wrong. Interesting.
I sent a PM to you asking for you email so I can send you the graphs, I really think you'll find them interesting.
This is not based around dueling, I PvP everyday, Ive PvPed in the largest battles on starsider, Easiyl in the 100s on both sides, and I will tell you right now there is no chance for me to go prone. Let alone go cover, you know how many trys it takes me to go cover? If Im lucky one, but most of the time it takes 4-6 trys, and Im a master rifleman. You know what happens when we go prone? A pistoleer breaks my ideal range, I use ideal range to shoot, I kneel if there to far away, I never ever go prone. Its suicidal, the amount of time it takes to get up, and when you close range the accuracy negatives out wiegh the accuracy bonuses.I can care less about using my ideal range to shoot thats not what im addressing here. Im addressing the issue that rifleman ARE not the masters of long range. Again I invite you to the test center, or I will go onto your server, you can use your FWG5, or any other pistol for that matter. I will stand at 60 meters, you can shoot my un-styled, then shoot me styled. You will see the difference. Even the Marksmen correspondant knows the range mods are messed up, your just to afraid to admit you are the most powerful right now. You have the best DPS, the best accuracy, you have 3 classes to pick from, whats not to love. Since when were we supposed to be master TKA also, and if you havnt noticed we use the mind pool as well, that gives us limited shots. Im sure you see alot of rifleman go prone on your server. Becuase I have seen maybe 3 this entire time I have played this game, and I watched a Master TKA walk right up to them, and one shot them. Any melee sees a prone target, awsome for them, why? becuase they arent moving, a non-moving target means they can attack them.
This is concerning the rifleman in every way, becuase we are the long range class of this game. Yet for some reason we are not at advantage at long range. All this was a suggestion on how to approch this, and it doesnt completely nerf any class. There are4 possible solutions I can think of to fix range mods.
1.) Increase max ranges of thecaribineer and rifleman.
2.) Decrease max ranges of the caribineer and pistoleer
3.) Introduce a style range cap
4.) Decrease accuracy of pistoleers, andcaribineers.
If this speed cap goes in without range modifications, alot of rifleman will quit this game, or change classes.
Send your charts, they arent concerning this subject in any matter however. What this subject concerns is Rifleman are not the masters of long range like all of us wanted to be. Our accuracy may be crap, all we ask is to be the masters of long range.
Incase your didnt read, I invite you to do tests with me, any pistol of your choice, I will stand at 60 meters. You can then shoot me with non-styles, then shoot me with styles. We can then even do accuracy tests while moving, we can do it at all ranges. You will see pistoelers are in-fact the masters of all ranges.
Anyways to sm it up if your dont want to read it, the pistoleer correspondant doesnt want any form of range cap, instead he wants us to go prone, and take cover, oh and use our ideal range.
Oh, you know but it really doesnt matter that anyone can walk up to us and we cant shoot anymore, oh also were immobile and will be taken out by melee that much easier. Yes, thats an awsome idea, lets all go prone from now on when we fight.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
Have a chance?I think you are thinking up a doomsday scenario that has not even happened yet. There has not been a change yet!!!Right now you shoot your laser rifle (better than T21) every second, for 2000+ damage in an area of effect using flusing volley, and it drops a stun as well. That's quite interesting. Nothing has changed yet, you cannot possible need XYZ to "stand a chance" when the current situation has you firing every second, any rifle, with any special.
Unless I'm mistaken using a laser rifle you can't hit 1 second per style unless you reduce the speed or have master marksman.
As for the TKA comment, tell him to take BH and **edit** already. 
Rifle can ONLY take master marksman to make their rifle better, a pistoleer has lots more options to make his pistol more effective. Currently a BH pistol and pistoleer stack up much better thanhaving 2elite combat classes.
Saying nothing has changed yet is just being silly, we are trying to prevent the change going in ffs, is he trying to be stupid here or what?
As for the armour costs, is this guy insane? We use HAM (mind at that) at an insane rate, sticking a comp helmet on is asking for a quick trip to the cloning center.
All our AP2 or greater guns do energy damage, a PSG helps very nicely against that, add to that AP doesn't even work on people without armour and it is not that great advantage.
He seems to totally ignore the fact that we use an insane amount of mind, sure we will be the damage kings in a large scale battle, all for the 15 seconds it takes to empty our mind bar (That's when we don't use a laser or T21 and miss half the shots). In PvE this makes a hugh difference, a pistoleer can have almost no downtime compared to a rifleman.
He really does seem to want a no disadvantage except the no high AP guns situation. I bet if the changes go in as is, the next request from pistoleers will be a AP2 gun.
Although it does not fit into this "discussion", pistols are far better are novice level.
Pistols get VERY nice defensive mods compared to rifles.
I wouldn't be so against a pistol buff if it would not also buff BHs, as it stands any advantage given to pistoleers falls right out of whack because so many of them have the BH pistol tree.
Sorry I wrote half these before I saw your reply, nicely done. I have overstated some of our weaknesses here, but not even close tothe amount the pistoleer correspondent did.
Going prone will work when they give us a special attack called /stop-the-target-from-coming-any-closer
Until then, it's useless, as you say. No matter what the bonus is, it won't matter when we only have time for 1 shot, if that.
The krayt dragon pistols are out of f'n control. I'm seeing more and more Bounty Hunters eyeshotting once per second for 350 damage in PvP! And none of these people are even Master level. It shouldn't take a Master Rifleman to stand a chance against a 0020 BH.
Aldeon, brother, now I really see what you have to deal with....
I /salute you
Keep it up, eventually something will be + to us instead of 500 -'s (nerfs).....
I would love to see one of those pistol users go rifleman, see how the grind is and give up after about 30.2 seconds.
It seems to me everyone is forgeting that ONLY MASTER SHARPSHOOTERS can shoot at close to one second.......all these crazy speed changes are gonna kill it for anyone who wants to be a rifleman, starting from scratch.
may the force be with you
Here are my thoughts on all of this. From what I've heard our correspondent responded to a post by Aldeon asking for pistols to be nerfed so we can't fire outside of 20m or 30m.
I have a rifleman alt so I have a good sense of the issues that riflemen have. What I don't understand is why your correspondent is asking to nerf my profession instead of trying to improve yours. I think they should get rid of the 2.5 melee penalty, get rid of the warping mobs, and return the T21 to pre-nerf damage.
The whole speed issue isn't much of a change. It only effects very high level riflemen who were firing a Laser Rifle or T21 once per second. In exchange, why not just ask for damage to be increased on rifles? Or maybe HAM cost reduction?
I have tried playing melee professions and hated PvP because I would be kited ... the Devs are increasing the melee range because kiting is such a big problem. I don't want to be kited as a pistoleer, and that's what you guys are asking for.
One other thing -- I don't think the argument that "we can become Bounty Hunters to improve our pistol skills" is a good one. I think most Pistoleers hate the fact that they can't be effective without getting Bounty Hunter skills, and want their profession can be fixed so they don't have to dabble in that one.
I just don't understand why you're trying to make it so pistols can't fire outside of 20 or 30m instead of fixing the problems in your own profession.
Pecos wrote:
The krayt dragon pistols are out of f'n control. I'm seeing more and more Bounty Hunters eyeshotting once per second for 350 damage in PvP! And none of these people are even Master level. It shouldn't take a Master Rifleman to stand a chance against a 0020 BH.
Heh, that would be great if they put the .5 speed cap in for pistols, you could die in 1.5 seconds! Hell if you tried to do something insane, you know like shoot back, you might get it as low as 1 second.
Philosopher1976, In my opinion they need tochange the way pistoleer / BH pistol works then. Anything that adds to pistolmeans any pistoleer taking BH pistol line also gets a buff. While many pistoleers may hate the BH pistol line, there seem to be more expert BHs out there than Master Pistoleers.
The reason we are trying to get a pistol nerf is because we are receiving a speed (read and therefore DPS)nerf because pistols want to be the fastest guns around. The main reason to get to master rifleman was because of the speed, without this speed it would feellacking.
If you make the pistoleer profession very good on it's own (I don't think it's as bad off as some people like to make out) then the BH / pistoleers will be gods.
Lastly : Samra Hael
Master Pistoleer • Expert Bounty Hunter
KOTOR • Scylla
What you're asking is the ability to kite every other class. If you stand over 32m away from me and run backwards, you can kill me with a CDEF and there is nothing I can do about it. That is lame, and the reason the Devs gave us all the same range to begin with.
The truth is that the speed "nerf" doesn't effect riflemen who don't have over +70 or +80 speed. There are a *lot* of issues you could be pressing for rifle, like 2.5 melee, HAM costs, etc. The fact that you're pressing for an issue that only effects high-level rifleman, and only matters for PvP. What about most riflemen? What about PvE?
The reality is that you're trying to nerf another class instead of fixing the big problems your own class has (like HAM costs, 2.5 melee, etc) for your own personal interests. YOU are a Master, YOU care about PvP, and YOU take buffs so you don't care about the other stuff as much.
I bet if we took a poll, riflemen would rather have 50% less HAM costs than have pistoleers nerfed so they can kite them in PvP. And think about it this way ... what's going to happen once the pistoleers are nerfed? THEY are all going to cry wolf, and you'll get nerfed again.
Instead of trying to nerf each other, we should be working together to fix our classes. We both have so many screwups and problems in our classes that nerfing each other should not be our #1 priority.
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