Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rifleman Issues Designer responses
Hey why dont riflemen/riflewomen get knockdowns. or a better way to knock down, I have seen alot of movies and combat demo's and riflepeople lol, always hit there targets with the butt of there guns. I think that type of knock down is move believable then a pistol whip. What's with the 3x more damage then any other class, when i use my rifle i get the poop beat out of me. I really dont thing thats fair. I am sure these are all problems that have been posted already. i just wanted to share my part. I figuer if one more complains or makes suggestions it might get noticed. So anyway, we should get a melee knock down, and the damage should be less towards the rifleperson, and am I wrong for saying this but shouldn't rifle have a longer range then pistol or carbine and such? It was my understanding that SOE wanted to created a fun game but not make it unbelievable, so to make it short make it more to real life. Well SOE you are missing alot of stuff to hit that mark. I was reading about the Fencer class and they said that duel wielding is not used in real life. lol SOE a chinese company saying this, I guess Kung Fu does not count and that is there heritage. So anyways Riflepeople should shoot from longer distances, Riflepersons should be able to shoot a bit faster. ok i have babbled long enough. SOE fix the issues at hand the playing issues. I dont care if i dont have a vehicle as long as you fix the main issues. If not i wont have fun and I will find another game to play. Hell i quit evercrack i will quit swg
Jason
Hey Fugly, Rixan, Hito, Musclez, you are all pp touchers
Y'know - I made an early, uninformed decision to be a Bounty Hunter/Rifleman. I did so, because in order of importance relative to SWG, I am a fan/roleplayer/gamer. I wanted to play a sniping bounty hunter, a la Zam Wessel. Now that I have months of gaming and forum reading under my belt, I haven't changed my mind.
Point of order: YPIANA: You're my hero. Apply for correspondant. Now, soldier!
As an amateur military buff, and hardcore sniping gamer (mmm, Medal of Honour) I'm sticking to the plan because I intend to be everything a RL sniper is supposed to be: smart and patient. Am I disappointed in some of the glaring lapses in the mechanics of the Rifleman? Byss, yeah! Do I want 'em fixed? You bet yer gundark I do! Am I going to whine like mule and pout? Um, no. All the classes have pluses and minuses and they're nowhere closse to being fully balanced with each other.
Deal with it. Point out problems. Overcome them where you can, while you have to. Hope for the best. These developers have to contend with satisfying more needs than any other MMORPG to date. Fans. Executives. Continuity. Realism. Pseudo-SW Realism. Munchkins/Power Gamers. Casual Gamers. Role-players, PVPers, Galactic Civil War wannabes, etc. etc. Me? I think they're doing fine.
I agree with much of the gripes and many of the suggested fixes. Others have said it better, so I won't repeat/rebut. In my arrogance, I'll assume any logical person sees which topics have logical solutions - just as I do. 
My primary suggestion is this: Make Marksman Stimpacks.
Call 'em what you please, but make an item that can heal Mind pool dmg., which requires a skill to use that is only available in the RIfleman tree (and probably the Doctor tree). Perhaps balance it with frequency of use timer, or damage caused to Action or Health, or damage caused to Mind pool's natural regen. This would alleviate, witha simple item/skill adjustment, the HAM bar imbalance, and add further complexity to the relationship between classes (I can imagine every Rifleman making good friends with at least 1 doctor).
Finally (post long -must stop), I've read many of the other profession forums and am happy to observe that the Rifleman forum is one of the more intelligent and informative forums. I like to think that this reflects the patience and intelligence of RL sniper-lovers like myself (again with the arrogance) who hope to play a better balanced Rifleman in the future. But hey, who the poodoo knows?
Niix Starkyller - Intrepid Server
PhredViell wrote:
My primary suggestion is this: Make Marksman Stimpacks.
While I'm not putting you or your idea down, I want to point out what a developer might point out- If there were mind healable stimpacks useable only by riflemen, you would have people picking up this handy skill (which would logically be available at Novice) and then continue to advance in their chosen profession. Then, while in PvP combat and being sniped, they would have the luxury of being able to heal that damage back.
Similarly, this would allow a rifleman to "spam" headshot on an NPC, take a few of these (if they are powerful, anyway) and "spam" them some more. If you choose to point out that this is an option for pistoleers and carbineers, then I will point to the perfect reason rifles should hit harder. Maybe not a *lot* harder, but harder nonetheless.
Anything that is gained as a result of a class can be used/exploited by someone of another class if they decide to do so. And they will, if it is a huge benefit. That is both a feature and a drawback to the versatile system of this game.
For example: (thanks to whoever bonked me in the head with this tidbit of info, makes a great argument)
If you wanted to be really, really good with a pistol or carbine, get Master Marksman, Scout and Pistoleer or Carbine, and traverse either the pistol or carbine skill tree in Bounty Hunter (you can almost do both! - But why would you do that instead of 3 or 4in the LLC tree instead - I mean, who cares about actual bounty hunting anyway, most people just want to "own" you in PvP or do silly amounts of damage in PvE while minimizing the risk to themselves. Forget the roleplay)
For pistols (with 13 skill points left over):
Accuracy = 50 +45 +50 = +145
Speed = 30 +49 + 50 = +129
Accuracy While standing +15
Accuracy While moving +30
Aiming +16
For Carbines (still with 13 skill points remaining):
Accuracy = 60 +55 +50 = +165
Speed = 30 +40 +50 = +120
Accuracy While moving +30
Aiming +4
Now...I'm not sure if it's intended to be able to get as much as 145 or 165 accuracy with a weapon, even if it comes at a huge oportunity cost, but people are willing to take up other professions to strengthen what they are in any way. If you have apistol that is -80 at 64m, does this mean you're actually shooting a (-80) + 145 = +65?
Just for comparison:
For Rifles (with Only rifle skill tree and master rifleman, 158 skill points remaining)
Accuracy = 50 + 52 = 102 (For an additional 48 skill points, master marksman gives you another +10)
Speed = 25 + 65 = 90 (master marksman gives you an additional +5)
Accuracy while moving +10
Aiming +24
And, if there were a Rifle tree in Bounty Hunter, almost the exact same thing would apply...people could go master scout and traverse the rifle BH skill tree and get a slew of additional bonuses at the cost of a lot of skill points. But then, what rifleman doesn't want terrain negotiation?
You know...I think this post has gone off topic, but I don't want to make a new thread because this would either be "ranting" or "justifying why riflemen suck", which it's intended to do neither.
SocialConformer: "Anything that is gained as a result of a class can be used/exploited by someone of another class if they decide to do so. And they will, if it is a huge benefit. That is both a feature and a drawback to the versatile system of this game."
Understandable point, as is the rest of your post. However, there are potential fixes, such as staggering the effectiveness/models of the MindStims (or whatever). MindStim A, B, C, etc. Not much to reduce PCs taking up the particular skill tree to pad their combat Uber-skills. *shrug* Or you could make it available only to Master Rifleman. Doesn't do much to help us climb the Rifleman profession, but at least a little extra punch when you make Master. *shrugs again*
Ah, well. It just goes to further illustrate my point that game-balance in such a complex system is not such an easy thing to achieve. Boy, you'd have to pay me quite a bit to take on that task in SWG....
...well, maybe not THAT much.
Niix Starkyller - Intrepid Server
Please, I beg you:
FIX TAKE COVER
It used to have some value for me being a rifleman and ranger, but now I am up doodie creek without a paddle. This is a major issue. Either being frozen or moving like grandpa after I use it may make me drop rifleman Please fix this......
Phred: I know I wouldn't mind being on the design team, I just wouldn't want to have to code the game, lol. I'm a database person myself, not into AI or other complex programming methodologies. But I like to think that I am a logical and rational thinker, when I make a point not to allow my feelings to dictate how I see things.
The balance issuesin a game of this magnitude are staggering when you start to think beyond the few ranged weapon classes. It's really tough and SOE really has its work cut out for it, but I don't agree with their nerf methods.
If I am driving my car and I swerve to the left and accelerate into the ditch on the side of the roadto avoid a dog, I haven't done anything right. This is how SOE tries to bring balance to things. "Holy **edit**, there's a cow in the road, quick let's try to drive through that muddy field in our Honda to avoid it!" instead of,"Holy **edit**, there's a cow in the road, let's slow down and honk our horn to see if it moves. Is it really a threat? Let's wait for traffic to clear in the other lane, then gently curve around it and get back in our lane, thereby avoiding a fatal collision and determining the best path to make."
Let's take the recent KD nerf as a SWG example. (not that I really need to argue my point, I'm just on a roll ) As far as I understand it:
Before: You could use knock down on anyone as often as you liked, and once they were on the ground they couldn't do anything for about 15 (or 30??)seconds, at which time they could be knocked down again, followed by more knock downs and other specials. I've never been on either end of this, but SOE may have been right in attempting to balance this. They saw a cow in the road, so they made a 90 degree turn into a ditch.
Now: You can only attempt to knock down anyone once every 30 seconds, period. Not even per target. If you do manage to hit and knock them down, they will only be on the ground for 5 seconds. The delay to make another attack for the KDer is also 5 seconds. So...what really IS the point? If you hit them, fine. You nullify combat for 5 seconds, after doing some damage. If you miss, you have to wait 5 seconds to do anything else, or 30 seconds to try doing that again.
Whatmight have happened if they thought things out rationally, applied the brakes and found a safer path: 20 second timer to repeat KD on a target, one timer per target. Target is knocked down for 10 seconds, attack delay is 4 seconds. Well, maybe 5 still, I don't know much aboutmelee in this game. This would allow the pikeman, swordsman, whatever to knock down up to 2 or 3opponents effectively, to run, or to knock one opponent down, get in a couple of free shots, then allow the target a 10 second grace window to run before being knocked down again.
Of course, I think that KD for ranged should stay aboutthe way it is now, seems pretty fair for escaping. But maybe not! It would need to be tested.
Point is that massive, unannounced nerfs like this should not be the way to go. Try fine tuning. Better yet, try adjusting incrementally, tweaking and then fine tuning. It's a slow process, but that's what it takes.
It sucks for us, because it's just like people that order food for delivery. If you are really, reallyhungry when you *place* the order, waiting 45 minutes for the food to arrive is torture! But if you occupy yourself, the food will arrive more quickly. As players, (at least for me) we tend to play close to every day. And everyday that goes by that our profession(s) aren't fixed is one day too long. After4 months of this, there will be people asking,"Why did it take you over a year to fix this??" That kind of pressure just might be part of why SOE cuts the wheel and floors the gas off road when someone yells,"Lookout!"
I'm rambling again, anyone find the point of this? I should just make a rambling thread and post my wonton thoughts there. Mmm, chinese food.
SocialConformer:
LOL. "Cow!" Lovely analogy. SomehowI doubt Q will ever use this a developer meeting, but, you never know. And, yes, I too would love to be a developer who didn't have to do coding. I think the good ones are called Conceptual Designers and the bad ones are called Company Executives. But hey, if wishes were horses then power-gamers would get trampled every day. Repeatedly.
Yes: We do ramble, but at least we ain't usin' gi-normous red letters to make a point. (No offense, bub)
However, these are discussion boards, and we are discussing. Perhaps a wee off topic, but reading some of these extended discussions myself has helped me in the past. Whether it was technical data, game data or just to get a feel for the ins and outs of a profession. Y'know, the old "The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked" theory. (Which made sense in school, but means squat in real life). If I had a nickel for every time.... /antirambleDefense1
So, I'll rest my case. I think we understand each other in regard to the major gaffs and bugs of the Rifleman Profession, we just have different ideas on how to fix 'em. Either way, I, like you, will continue to be the best Rifleman I can be under the conditions that exist. Even if my major profession features are broken, buggy or nerfed, I at least can still enjoy spending time in the local cantina, bugging Rebs and Imps about their selfish political agendas. That is the benefit of being a roleplayer more than a munchkin. *smug grin*
Niix Starkyller -- Intrepid Server
"Learning to adapt, improvise and overcome seems more fun to me than learning to whine, b---- and moan." - Niix
I have barely started climbing the Rifleman ladder (0/1/0/0), so I cannot speak from a Master's perspective on the class. However, I do see several drawbacks to choosing a Rifle over a Pistol:
1) Historically, (and hey, how much more historical can you get, "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away......") rifles were used to attack from long range, to minimize damage to yourself. Whereas, in this game, Pistols/Carbines can fire just as far as a RIfle, and in most cases, do as much if not more damage.
2) The speed on rifles make little, if any, sense. True, when you think of modern weapons, many rifles, especially those used for Snipers, are breech loaders (meaning you fire, eject the spent shell, enter a new shell,close the breech, rinse, repeat). These are "laser" rifles, meaning the same rules do not apply. Yes, they should fire slower than a Carbine, and even slower than a Pistol. But the firing speeds on rifles have been taken to extreme. Hell, a Sniper in any Armed Forces could Breech Load a Rifle faster than most rifles fire in SWG........
3) Accuracy? Ok, so Im 48 meters away from a creature, with a +23 to hit. My hunting partner, a Smuggler, is right beside me. Im prone, he's kneeling. I fire a MindShot, to get the bleeding started, he fires a normal shot immediately after......The creature runs right for him, and starts pounding away. He knocks it down of course, and moves out of its range. Im like "WTH didn't I get agro?" So I look at the combat screen, and what do I see? "you fire a Distracting shot at a piket longhorn and miss", and right under that, "***** fires at a piket longhorn and hits for 376 damage". ????? So, I figure its a fluke. 2 hours of hunting, I had a 65% miss rate, as compared to his 20% miss rate on opening shots, from roughly the same range. Needless to say, I was stunned. Yes, he probably has a better + to hit with ranged, but Pistol vs RIfle at those ranges??? Ridiculous.
I see a lot of potential with the RIfleman class, but the fact that it really does not outdamage oroutdistance either the pistol or carbine makes me wonder what SOE was thinking when they made the Min/Max ranges for all guns the same. I'll stick with the class, but hopefully SOE can put a little more time and thought into making the game a bit more realistic.
Rifleman are not suppose to be military man in SWG. They're merely your average Joes carrying a rifle trolling the plains to hunt animals. It's not a weapon for wars. However, if you really think about it, this game is really poorly designed in terms of how the professions are set up relative to each other. The combat system also doesnt accomodate for the choice in three main types of weapons, pistol carbine rifle. I mean, they could very well get rid of the weapon class types and then you will see that most rifle weapons will be rated much lower thancurrent carbine and pistol weapons.In addition to that, both carbine and pistol weapons complementthe premier profession called Bounty Hunter. If they really want rifleman to workthe same way all other elite weapon class works, namely pistol and carbine, theyshouldhave made the Bounty Hunter LLC operateon rifle skill instead of heavy weapon. That way picking up Rifleman would not be a moot cause because you can use the rifle abilitiesto enhance LLC shots.
Again, great game but poorly deisgned from the get-go and nowthe desperate nerf-festonly adds to its demise.
Phred: Yes, we basically agree that something needs to be done. Everyone has put their ideas out, andmost of themarevalid, balanced solutions. Any one of them would work, when implemented correctly, even if they might not all work together, the end result is what we are looking for.
I would like more feedback from the devs concerning what we have to say (and I mean all players, there are problems with most profesions). I realize that it's a daunting task to answer all of these questions which is why we see it so seldomly. That is what the correspondant is for, and I think it's a good idea to help filter out all of the useless whining, and only present the constructive whining to the Devs, so they can focus their energies elsewhere. But like everyone, I would still like to get an occasional response 
Unlike many people here, I did not participate in forum discussions before the game was released, although I did watch the development of the game over 2 years. (I think that's how long it was, anyway)
We'll just have to sit back and watch...
In response to GalehnBradWaren's comments about the how often rifles are used in the movies, it's because,acoording to the Star Wars RPG revised corebook,Blaster rifles are illegal for civillians in most systems( This is certain in the Empire era, movies 4-6. I'm not not sure about the Republic era). The reason is becausethey are military weapons and are more leathal than the blaster pistol. They do more damage, have a fasterrate offire, and a longer range.
The Blaster rifle is the standard issue weapon to soldiers on both sides. The standard Storm Trooper carries a rifle, whether it be the standard E-11 or the T-21 light repeater. Most, if not all of the rebels in thebattle of Hoth did carry rifles as well.
So the limitations are not imposed to keep a semblance of the Star Wars Universe. Because if they wanted to, the T-21 would be an acual repeater (i.e machine gun*)and not an overgratified musket. Brown Bess all the way!
*no, really. The T-21 is essentially a machine gun. I understand if it has a delay time due to heating and all, but 7 seconds? thats absurd.
Hey druidman could you stop spamming the boards with riflemen are average
joes hunting animals lies all over the forums?
Have you looked at our titles? SNIPER - GUNNER - SOLDIER
Does the AP3 T-21 look like something you use against deer?
Why would animal hunters need an entire counter-sniping line of skills?
Why do we dizzy or force animals out of cover? no effect on them
Our most powerful attack is strafe2, so we can kill a herd of moose in one attack?
Get a clue and get out of the rifleman forum.
And I know how you think so highly of bounty hunters... go read "The Bounty Hunter
Wars"Boba Fett is a rare character, complete bad @ss, every other bounty hunter
in the galaxy is too dumb to tie their shoes, not to mention hated by both the rebels
and the galactic empire, unfortunately the devs think Boba Fett is the norm.