Rifleman Archive
Thread: The poop on the Combat rebalance, someone FINNALLY got answers from Fan Fest.
ogwane wrote:
Yes my dreams have came true.....rifleman being nerfed
now i wont get put down in pvp with a 3k mind in 3 shots
Lets see here. You are saying that you are lost 1k mind per shot in PvP. That means with the PvP damage reduction and that only 80% of the damage hits the targeted pool, that each shot had to be doing at least 5k per shot. And that is not even factoring in armor.
MindShot damage multipliers do not run high enough to make that possible. My T21 is max 621 and that is with a 32% damage slice and a 33% powerup. For a shot of that damage I would need a5.4 multiplier. Headhot3 only has a 1.5 multiplier.
So there are two possible explanations. One is that the weapon in question is a Legendary looted weapon in which case it is not representative. The other is that you are being less than truthful. So which one is it?
Message Edited by Waste93 on 06-09-2004 01:58 PM
Waste93 wrote:
...snip...
However you also can't gimp a profession for PvP without it effecting PvE. Many more people do PvE than PvP and all this balancing for PvP has an adverse effect on PvE. You have to consider both sides. Not just one. Though it seems most of the cries of "nerf Riflemen" seem to be coming from PvP players. Not so much from PvE.
QFE
Repaq wrote:
Debatable
Not really.
low blow and pistolwhip are completly different. pistolwhip has a range of 10m. if i have to be 10m from someone to be effective, why wouldn't i just be pure melee?
Ok they aren't "completely" different. However one skill is gained by dabbling in another class. please compare rifles to pistols and not smuggler/pistols to rifles.
Not it isn't. A Pistoleer doe NOT have to dabble to get PistolWhip.
I have yet to see this proven and sounds far fetched.
That was the way it was suppose to be. However at first it acted in reverse. So the melee actually had a penalty to hit Rifleman. I believe that has been fixed.
doesn't get a second roll? just because it's lower doesn't mean it's not there. (also remember misses on the first roll will negate the second roll.) and well if a 50% damage reduction is worthless i guess i can stop spending hundreds of thousands on sythsteak that doesn't even reduce 50%.
By that I meant that the second roll is only for a damage reduction. Not for a complete miss. Block isn't worthless, but it also isn't nearly as good as Dodge. If you had a choice between your synth steak with damage reduction and another food that resulted in complete misses that last longer, which would you choose?
Don't forget that mobs don't have the bonus to hit when you're holding a sword. this would account for counterattack working more.
True. However that could also mean that my second theory is correct.
TKA's have the highest accuracy in the game, it could be directly tied to accuracy.
It could. However if you go to the site I listed earlier you will see that the specials do have a base chance for the status effect to stick. LowBlow was at 50 and a TKA's KD2 is at 75.
I searched the pistoleer boards and saw no such sticky.
It was an old sticky. About two Pistol correspondents ago. I'll try to do some digging to see if I can find it again.
you said accuracy caps at 95% so i figured you meant that accuracy caps at 95.
Ah. No, what I meant to say that even if you are at +160 accuracy, your still are capped at 95% chance to hit.
I guess that would explain why a pistoleer will miss me about 30% more at 20m than a rifleman will at the same range. Something is off in yourcalculations.
Nope. Calculations are accurate. The problem could lie with the accuracy of the specific weapons at that range. It could also be related to the skill of the character. Were both Masters? Also what weapons were they using? Was the Rifleman using a Jawa where the ideal range isn't far from that 20m so they could have gotten a bonus to hit? What was the Pistoleer using? A Republic Blaster has almost no accuracy bonus/penalty.
And that would also gate them from dabbling in defense. comes down to a choice speed or power.
The point is they have that choice. The Rifleman doesn't.
Then push for sockets to be added into armor.
We are.
SEA's can push melee and ranged defense as well as dodge/counter/block up to 150, ranged and melee can get as high as 180 with a SL. This info was posted by a Dev. and is not speculation.
Show me the post. It was suppose to cap at +125. Remember also that not all the Devs actually know what is going on in the game. See the post where Keldarin stated that higher AP did not give more damage. Also remember that even though melee/ranged is suppose to cap at +125, if you look at your skill mods it can show it higher. However the amount over +125 is disregarded in the calculations.
highest speed crafted T21 i can find is 7.6 maybe you need a new weaponsmith
My T21 is a bit older. But running that number still doesn't allow the Rifleman to hit the speed cap without SEAs. Also don't forget I used a 3.0 speed pistol. Which is pretty slow for a pistol too. As you stated earlier, it isn't hard to get a 2.2 pistol.
speed cap is 1.0
Yes. But the speed cap is only on the FINAL speed. That is the speed AFTER the delay mod is taken into effect.
you add the delay BEFORE you take off the 75% So after delay you're looking at 2.0 (with a 7.6 rifle) vs. 1.3, the much higher damage you'd get with a rifle would more than make up for this.
Nope. Believe it's the other way around. Delay mod is added last to the weapons speed.
However I tried to duplicate you math to find out how you came out with a final speed of 2.0 and I can't do it. Please show me your math.
So no cap there. But lets take both weapons to a slicer and get them sliced. We get a 30% speed slice. Now the base speed is 6.3 5.3 and 2.1 . Lets see what happens when we add in our +75 now. Rifle is at 1.575 and after the delay is at 3.15. 1.8 (7.6 rifle with a 30% speed slice) The pistol goes to 0.525 and after the delay 1.05. 1.0 The pistol is for all intents and purposes at the speed cap. Is at the speed cap (can't get any faster) And I didn't even need a SEA. The other option of course is to add a speed powerup. Easily dropping the pistol to the speed cap while the rifle still can not reach it without a SEA.
The pistol in your post is at the speed cap and can't get anymore DPS with SEA's, while the rifle can only get better.
The point was the pistol doesn't need any SEA's to hit the cap.
So they shoot at the cap, just like a rifleman. Only with much lower damage.
See above.
Well considering that melee have a bonus to hit pistoleers, while pistoleers have no such bonus to hit melee. this isn't their current role. if it was the other way around you would have an arguement.
Didn't say that they were working perfectly for their role. They need to be tweaked. But that is what their role is suppose to be.
"Your role for Riflemen seems to be that of the sniper."-- and don't forget sniper shot. we are limited in the sniper roll, but the AP we have gives us a huge advantage. and being the only ones to target a specific pool would be a very nice nitch in the CB.
That statement is about what you seem to think Riflemen should be. Not what I think they are. SniperShot is not a sniper ability regardless of what the name says. Unless you think snipers can only kill someone that is laying on the ground incapacitated. It'sa ranged DB, nothing more.
Are you that hung up on a title? if you like to lay down area fire, choose a profession that does that. why would a title matter?
I did. It's Rifleman.
I don't want to get into an aguement about CM's if you want to talk about them, start another thread. Now about rifles, it's not just about mind. sure we have high AP weapons with high damage. We shoot just as fast or faster than any other profession while dealing out more damage per shot. Area dizzy, and stun. even have the only AP stun weapon in the game. ON TOP of being able to rape the mind pool.
And it's all about the Mind pool in PvP. And the reason it's about the Mind pool is because of armor, buffs, and stims.
I can't wait either, but as i see it rifle will still be the only way to go. unless something changes. and making mind healable will not stop the influx of rifleman alone.
Actually it will stop the influx. Here is why. The Mind will not now be the determining factor in PvP. They have also said they are going to lower armor to about 60% resists or so. Now most people picked up Rifleman for PvP. The reason was the Jawa Rifle and the Mind pool attacks. They are making it harder to target the mind, and making it just as easy to heal as the other pools. By lowering the resist cap they are also taking the Jawa out as the weapon of choice. With a 60% resist cap you can use an AP2 energy weapon and come out with about the same damage. Carbineers have an AP2 energy weapon. Swordsman have an AP2 blast weapon. Well you get the idea.
gimp? let me ask you something... When is the last time you were outdamaged for loot rights to a pistoleer or carbineer? or even 2 or 3 of them grouped? How about the pistoleers left at home because someone decided they needed another rifleman in there 10 man team so they could kill the mob's faster?This isn't a gimping, it's a balancing....and i think they are going about it wrong.
I only go solo. Nor do I steal other peoples kills. However balancing doesn't mean giving everyone the same damage. It won't work. There is more to balancing than just damage output. Their is also survivability.
Waste93 wrote:
Not really.
yes really
Not it isn't. A Pistoleer doe NOT have to dabble to get PistolWhip.
and pistol whip is a melee range move/ like i said why not go melee?
That was the way it was suppose to be. However at first it acted in reverse. So the melee actually had a penalty to hit Rifleman. I believe that has been fixed.
My point still stands.
By that I meant that the second roll is only for a damage reduction. Not for a complete miss. Block isn't worthless, but it also isn't nearly as good as Dodge. If you had a choice between your synth steak with damage reduction and another food that resulted in complete misses that last longer, which would you choose?
and my Point was that we get much higher chance to take no damage on the FIRST role. think i stated that i find melee and ranged defense more effective. so what do you think i'd choose?
True. However that could also mean that my second theory is correct.
How so?
It could. However if you go to the site I listed earlier you will see that the specials do have a base chance for the status effect to stick. LowBlow was at 50 and a TKA's KD2 is at 75.
They "could" have, not "do" have. Remember these sites are run by people like you and me with theories. Not developers. In any event i'll stick with mine that they are affected by accuracy.
Nope. Calculations are accurate. The problem could lie with the accuracy of the specific weapons at that range. It could also be related to the skill of the character. Were both Masters? Also what weapons were they using? Was the Rifleman using a Jawa where the ideal range isn't far from that 20m so they could have gotten a bonus to hit? What was the Pistoleer using? A Republic Blaster has almost no accuracy bonus/penalty.
both masters, T21 and Dx2 (they both had horrible accuracy mods).
The point is they have that choice. The Rifleman doesn't.
and the rifleman doesn't have to make a choice right now, they shoot at the cap anyway.
We are.
good for you.
Show me the post. It was suppose to cap at +125. Remember also that not all the Devs actually know what is going on in the game. See the post where Keldarin stated that higher AP did not give more damage. Also remember that even though melee/ranged is suppose to cap at +125, if you look at your skill mods it can show it higher. However the amount over +125 is disregarded in the calculations.
i don't have it bookmarked, and i'm not going to wad through old posts for an hour to find it. maybe someone that does have it bookmarked would post it for me. Rifleman do more damage regardless of AP.
My T21 is a bit older. But running that number still doesn't allow the Rifleman to hit the speed cap without SEAs. Also don't forget I used a 3.0 speed pistol. Which is pretty slow for a pistol too. As you stated earlier, it isn't hard to get a 2.2 pistol.
yes you used a slow pistol, but what does that matter if they're hitting the cap?
Yes. But the speed cap is only on the FINAL speed. That is the speed AFTER the delay mod is taken into effect.
and why would any other speed matter? still don't know where you get 0.5
Nope. Believe it's the other way around. Delay mod is added last to the weapons speed.
ok, so what you're saying is with a delay mod of 2, and your speed mod is 100,(which will bring your speed down to zero) you add the delay mod, and you're shooting at 2 seconds? you might want to rethink that.
However I tried to duplicate you math to find out how you came out with a final speed of 2.0 and I can't do it. Please show me your math.
7.6 with a delay mod of 2 is 9.6...75% off of 9.6 = 2.4 (math was wrong the first time, sorry about that)
The point was the pistol doesn't need any SEA's to hit the cap.
and my point is they do less damage, they SHOULD be faster.
See above.
so you're saying a riflman doesn't do more damage than a pistoleer?
Didn't say that they were working perfectly for their role. They need to be tweaked. But that is what their role is suppose to be.
where did you read that pistoleers are supposed to be the anti-melee?
That statement is about what you seem to think Riflemen should be. Not what I think they are. SniperShot is not a sniper ability regardless of what the name says. Unless you think snipers can only kill someone that is laying on the ground incapacitated. It'sa ranged DB, nothing more.
No, you said it wasn't possible. and i'm saying it is. will we be able to shoot 200m out like a sniper? no. but can we choose where we hit the target like a sniper? yes. But then you'll say anyone can choose where we hit they hit the target. And i'll say That's why they should limit that ability to us. As far as what you said on snipershot..Where did i say that's all snipers can do? it's an ability we have, we're the only ones that can do it. So it's a sniper ability as far as this game goes.
I did. It's Rifleman.
So i guess you are that hung up on a title.
And it's all about the Mind pool in PvP. And the reason it's about the Mind pool is because of armor, buffs, and stims.
And if it wasn't all about the mind pool. rifle would still be kings. in a large raid i rarely use headshot (Only to take out the CM's fast) i'm usually finding the right spot to hit the most people with strafeshot2 (the most powerful area shot in the game)
Actually it will stop the influx. Here is why. The Mind will not now be the determining factor in PvP. They have also said they are going to lower armor to about 60% resists or so. Now most people picked up Rifleman for PvP. The reason was the Jawa Rifle and the Mind pool attacks. They are making it harder to target the mind, and making it just as easy to heal as the other pools. By lowering the resist cap they are also taking the Jawa out as the weapon of choice. With a 60% resist cap you can use an AP2 energy weapon and come out with about the same damage. Carbineers have an AP2 energy weapon. Swordsman have an AP2 blast weapon. Well you get the idea.
Carbineers have an AP2 weapon that is hit HARD by damage mitigration, and swords have a hard time hitting much of anything in pvp.
I only go solo. Nor do I steal other peoples kills. However balancing doesn't mean giving everyone the same damage. It won't work. There is more to balancing than just damage output. Their is also survivability.
Good for you however there are plenty of rifleman kill stealers out there. Hmm, i don't know how much more survivability i need when i can stand toe to toe with a giant krayt dragon firing strafe2 at the cap. but oh yeah, i get that by mixing other skills in there, however i wouldn't have all the melee defense if i was a carbineer, nor would i be putting out anywhere close to the same damage as i do. but carbineer has KD. why would i need KD if i can stand toe to toe with it?
I find it kind of funny that when a group 5 various other professions comes along and tries to steal one of my kills, and fails. i love that feeling. however deep down, i Know i shouldn't be able to outdamage 5 other masters.
Message Edited by Repaq on 06-10-2004 01:52 PM
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 06-10-2004 11:48 AM
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Repaq,
Then why bother having different combat classes? Why not just have a generic grunt and be done with it? Riflemen have the least number of defenses out of any ranged combat profession. Not true, that title goes to the carbineer, who oddly enough has the lowest DPS. Sure they have stat effects, but only one more than we do (blind) our dizzy posture change, can be just as effective as their dizzy KD. We rely on an unhealable pool to do any of our special attacks--in fact, we are the only combat profession to do so. Therefore, why shouldn't we dish out the most damage per second?
Where was your outrage andsense of "fairness"when we Riflemen had no Vasarian Brandy, no Muon Gold, no buffs, no armor and a 2.5X melee damage penalty coupled with MOBS that warped 100 meters once we opened fire? Where were you when we had to wait 2 minutes for our mind to come back up afterfour headshot3's?
Nerf armor, nerf buffs, nerf the bioengineered foods, do away with the 75% PvP damage reduction so everyone can one-shot incap everyone else. Then the only factor that chooses your professionwill beyour playing style.
Riflemen (or any combat class) wouldn't be able to do any of the things that you're complaing about without the above changes to the game that made everyone so over-powered. And I promise you that when the devs see a post like yours, Repaq, they don't think, "Riflemen are overpowered." They think, "These buffs and armor are just killing our high-end content."
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 06-10-2004 11:48 AM
Zelos1 wrote:
Another was a melee rifelman tactic.
/rifle buttstock to the head - this moves allows the rifleman to use the rifle like a polearm swinging the stock of the weapon at the opponents head
Repaq wrote:
Why should we have powerful area attacks when it seems pretty obvious that they wanted that role to go to the carbineer?
It isn't obvious to me.....
We get Flushingshot 2 (high damage + Stun ), Strafeshot 2 (really high damage + a supposed to be status effect), and Flurryshot 2 (ok damage + Dizzy). Seems like we're very well-suited for AoEs.
Carbineers' have what? Actionshot 2 (do people use bleeds much now? 
), SuppressionFire 2 (if anything like it's weaker counterpart, this isn't much use in PvP and totally useless against creatures), and Chargeshot 2 (this one may be somewhat useful if it got fixed since I dropped Carbineer, but not infinitely useful). Any other carbine AoEs I missed? Maybe, but you get my point?
Repaq wrote:
God damn forum ate my post 2 straight times. I give up. I don't care anymore anyway.
Had that happen a couple times too. So much for the forum upgrade.
Repaq wrote:
God damn forum ate my post 2 straight times. I give up. I don't care anymore anyway.