Rifleman Archive

On a side note i think we all agree that making us slower is a bunch of well something that comes out of a bull that doesn't smell so nice.

Message Edited by Repaq on 06-09-2004 01:40 AM

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Repaq wrote:

Edit...

On a side note everywhere you look you see rifleman. It is the PvP king of the hill. Just for once wouldn't you like to see an equal mix of pistoleers, carbineers, and rifleman. everyone choosing a different class because that suits their playstyle? instead of one class being the best or close to best of ALL worlds?

Message Edited by Repaq on 06-09-2004 01:14 AM

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Last Time I've seen that was when Buffs where Spice, Armor was Storm Trooper/Reb Marine, and there was no 75% PVP reduction.

Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 06-09-2004 04:36 AM

Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 06-09-2004 07:04 AM

I did read through all of your posts and I know that you are a rifleman. Are you saying you aren't also a pistoleer? I'm sorry I assumed you used your multiple characters and that you used them to have a difference on other servers. My altstend to really just be a way for me to go around looking at stuff on other servers, but I know that my way of playing is far from the average and there areplenty of people have 2 or 3 characters with a maxxed out build designed for various types of PvP. Sorry for mistaking you for one of these people.

And I'll go searching for the dev post stating it but I thought it was common knowledge that we got a higher to hitmodifier the day they removed the higher damage modifier.

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Repaq wrote:

I'm a rifleman/fencer. you will never see a pistol in my hand.

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iseinip wrote:

I'm currently a master pistoleer/Bh 0030 and i have to agree with the rifleman on this one. I don't belive they need a severe speed nerf but i do think they need the speed lowered a bit. Since so many people wanna try and compare real world weapons to weapons in SWG I have gone ahead and done some comparing for you.

In SWG i have always looked at carbines as smg's and rifles as assault rifles. In almost all real world cases tho smg's have a higher rate of fire then assault rifles. Which means carbines should be faster then rifles but carbines should have alot worse accuracy. Here are a couple links to real world weapons 2 smg's the MP5 and the UZI, and 2 assault rifles the AK-47 and the M16.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg14-e.htm -MP5

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg17-e.htm-UZI

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka50.html-AK-47

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm-M16

Pistols should be the SLOWEST firing of the ranged weapons, and the least damaging.Yes a PISTOLEER is saying this. But since we are supposed to be a last resort type weapon we should have the best defense, status effects, and KDs

Carbines should be the FASTEST. But they should have the worst accuracy, and medium damage. They should also have the most AOE attacks of all the ranged proffessions.

Rifles should be medium speed. The best accuracy, the best single pool shotsNOTjust head shotsand the most damage. Worst defense tho because its alot harder to dodge/move with the bigger rifle then it is the other 2.

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Repaq wrote:

This is not a status change it's a posture change. and you have to be within melee range for it.

It's a status change becuase it doesn't just lower your posture, it puts you flat on your back and unable to attack. It's a status effect.

low blow and pistolwhip are completly different. pistolwhip has a range of 10m. if i have to be 10m from someone to be effective, why wouldn't i just be pure melee?

They are not completely different. They are both KD attacks done with pistols. The only difference is one is range while the other is not.

Actually it DOES. melee have a bonus to hit ALL ranged classes. it's not greater with a larger weapon.

The bonus is suppose to be higher based on the weapon size.

And the rifleman has a greater chance to evade the shot on the first roll.

If the first theory is correct yes. However the Rifleman doesn't really get a second roll while the Pistoleer does. The Riflemans second roll is lower (+80) thatn the Pistoleers (+105) and it reduces damage. It doesn't avoid it completely.

There is NO WAY a pistoleer has the equivilent of 110 plus ranged defense by adding the 2, you can probably throw out your second theory.

If the second theory is correct than they would. And I suspect that the second theory is correct for this reason. When I was a Master Rifle/Smuggler I only had Block +80. With that template I also didn't have a lot of melee/ranged defense. Just that from Unarmed, Rifles, Pistols, and Rifleman. When I was doing this I rarely saw my Block go off.

Now I'm Master Rifle/TKA with Swordsman 0/0/4/3. So my CounterAttack is about the same as my Block and I see my CounterAttack go off fairly often. But by taking that template I've also increased my melee/ranged defense. So why is my CounterAttack going off more now than my Block was before when the numbers are about the same? If it's because of my increased ranged/melee defense than the second theory is probably correct.

Another possible explanation could be Defense Acuity that melee professions get.

But i know the +40 is ineffective because this is one of the things i've tested in duels, they resist less than 20%, there is no way it's a straight percentage. as you argue later in this post.

I can tell you that at 100 def to KD i can get KD (although very very very difficult, and usually only by a TKA so i would assume your opponents accuracy comes into play here.)

I haven't done any testing on this. A couple possible explanations. The defense mod could be in a ratio. So that for example every +2 equals 1%. Another possibility is that there is a bonus chance for the status to stick built into the special. So a TKA may have best mod built into the special.

I also suspect that just like accuracy, there is a cap. So that even with +100 or more there will always be some chance for it sticking.

I'd like to know who fed you this garbage, tell a swordsman that he's just as accurate with as a TKA becuase it caps at 95%. I'd like to see his response.

It's not garbage. It's proven fact. There was a stickied post by Vosted on the Pistoleer board that showed this. Here is also a site that lists the mods.

Special Moves

I think you think that accuracy works like the speed mod. I can tell you with certainty it does not.

Not sure where you got this idea. But I know that speed mods are not like accuracy mods. Speed mods are a percent decrease in base speed.

In PvE yes becuase mobs have little if any defense. but pvp, against a defense stacker the rifle is more accurate than a pistol in ANY range.

Actually there is little difference between Pistol and Rifle accuracy at Master. Why do I say this? Rifle accuracy is +160 base and +10 moving. That give you +170 moving since you can add the movement bonus to the base since you will be deducting the movement penalty in the formula. Pistol is +95 base and +30 movement for a total of +125.

Now we also have to factor in the specials. Rifle is +15 so we have a total of +185 moving +175 not moving. Pistol have +50 so we have +175 moving and +145 not moving.

So while moving, and since you said you PvP more than PvE and you know you are moving in PvP, the difference is +10 Rifle. So at close range where a Pistol is +accuracy while a rifle is -accuracy, the Pistol is more accurate at that range bracket. So no, rifles are NOT more accurate at ANY range as you stated.

with 75 mod, everyone could hit the cap with the right loot. would set some gamers apart.

Won't work. Riflemen hit the cap at +97 speed I believe. That means they would need a +22 SEA to hit the cap. What would Pistoleers need? None. Why? Because of BH. You could dabble in BH to push your Pistol or Carbine speed up over +75 and you could hit the cap without an SEA's. Sure that is dabbling, but that is an option they would have that rifles would not.

Also as a Wookiee I can only wear Wookiee armor. However I have yet to see any Wookiee armor with slots. If Wookiee armor has no slots then Wookiee Riflemen would be gated from hitting the cap.

But what happens if we max the +75 a hard cap like melee/ranged defense? It solves the BH dablling but SEA's wouldn't help you then since it couldn't raise the level past the cap. Just like gettin a SEA of ranged/melee defense won't let you get over +125.

However using either example a Pistoleer can hit the cap without SEA's or dabbling in BH. How? Watch.

Lets look at two weapons. A rifle speed 9 (about right for a T21) and a pistol speed 3. Lets say they have a special with a time delay of 2. That means to hit the speed cap they need to get that speed down to 0.5 . Can they? Well at +75 the rifle drops to 2.25 and the pistol to 0.75. With the delay that goes to 4.5 and 1.5 . So no cap there. But lets take both weapons to a slicer and get them sliced. We get a 30% speed slice. Now the base speed is 6.3 and 2.1 . Lets see what happens when we add in our +75 now. Rifle is at 1.575 and after the delay is at 3.15. The pistol goes to 0.525 and after the delay 1.05. The pistol is for all intents and purposes at the speed cap. And I didn't even need a SEA. The other option of course is to add a speed powerup. Easily dropping the pistol to the speed cap while the rifle still can not reach it without a SEA.

No. You just need to change the delay mods in Pistol and Carbineers to allow a Master to hit the speed cap or come very close to it like Riflemen. They are afterall Masters of their chosen weapon.

why wouldn't other melee be anti melee?

Some would be. But why is there a problem with a ranged profession being anti-melee? Would not some of the melee being anti-Riflemen or Anti-Carbineer? If so why not have their opposite which would bea ranged anti-melee.

oh but it is, you said yourselfthat the role seems to be sniper. think about being the only one that can target a specific pool. i would think that would be DAMN fun.

I've never said any such thing. We can not be snipers because of the limitations but in. We are infantry with a sniper like ability. That one sniper like ability is ConcealShot.

Then be a carbineer if that's what you like about rifleman.

I like being infantry which is the role of the Rifleman. Carbineer are the assault troops.

On a side note everywhere you look you see rifleman. It is the PvP king of the hill. Just for once wouldn't you like to see an equal mix of pistoleers, carbineers, and rifleman. everyone choosing a different class because that suits their playstyle? instead of one class being the best or close to best of ALL worlds?

Why do you see so many Riflemen and CM's? It's because of the Mind pool. And why is that the target of choice? Because of armor, stim, and buffs.

I can't wait to see Mind being removed as the determing factor in PvP even though I don't PvP. It wasn't the main factor until armor, stims, and buffs came out. I'd love to see more professions in PvP.

However you also can't gimp a profession for PvP without it effecting PvE. Many more people do PvE than PvP and all this balancing for PvP has an adverse effect on PvE. You have to consider both sides. Not just one. Though it seems most of the cries of "nerf Riflemen" seem to be coming from PvP players. Not so much from PvE.

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Waste93 wrote:

It's a status change becuase it doesn't just lower your posture, it puts you flat on your back and unable to attack. It's a status effect.

Debatable

low blow and pistolwhip are completly different. pistolwhip has a range of 10m. if i have to be 10m from someone to be effective, why wouldn't i just be pure melee?

They are not completely different. They are both KD attacks done with pistols. The only difference is one is range while the other is not.

Ok they aren't "completely" different. However one skill is gained by dabbling in another class. please compare rifles to pistols and not smuggler/pistols to rifles.

The bonus is suppose to be higher based on the weapon size.

I have yet to see this proven and sounds far fetched.

If the first theory is correct yes. However the Rifleman doesn't really get a second roll while the Pistoleer does. The Riflemans second roll is lower (+80) thatn the Pistoleers (+105) and it reduces damage. It doesn't avoid it completely.

doesn't get a second roll? just because it's lower doesn't mean it's not there. (also remember misses on the first roll will negate the second roll.) and well if a 50% damage reduction is worthless i guess i can stop spending hundreds of thousands on sythsteak that doesn't even reduce 50%.

If the second theory is correct than they would. And I suspect that the second theory is correct for this reason. When I was a Master Rifle/Smuggler I only had Block +80. With that template I also didn't have a lot of melee/ranged defense. Just that from Unarmed, Rifles, Pistols, and Rifleman. When I was doing this I rarely saw my Block go off.

Now I'm Master Rifle/TKA with Swordsman 0/0/4/3. So my CounterAttack is about the same as my Block and I see my CounterAttack go off fairly often. But by taking that template I've also increased my melee/ranged defense. So why is my CounterAttack going off more now than my Block was before when the numbers are about the same? If it's because of my increased ranged/melee defense than the second theory is probably correct.

Don't forget that mobs don't have the bonus to hit when you're holding a sword. this would account for counterattack working more.

Another possible explanation could be Defense Acuity that melee professions get.

if it works like the description then it would apply to rifles too (yes i'm strengthing your point here, but there is alot of speculation whether or not it actually works)

I haven't done any testing on this. A couple possible explanations. The defense mod could be in a ratio. So that for example every +2 equals 1%. Another possibility is that there is a bonus chance for the status to stick built into the special. So a TKA may have best mod built into the special.

TKA's have the highest accuracy in the game, it could be directly tied to accuracy.

I also suspect that just like accuracy, there is a cap. So that even with +100 or more there will always be some chance for it sticking.

It's not garbage. It's proven fact. There was a stickied post by Vosted on the Pistoleer board that showed this. Here is also a site that lists the mods.

I searched the pistoleer boards and saw no such sticky.

Not sure where you got this idea. But I know that speed mods are not like accuracy mods. Speed mods are a percent decrease in base speed.

you said accuracy caps at 95% so i figured you meant that accuracy caps at 95.

Actually there is little difference between Pistol and Rifle accuracy at Master. Why do I say this? Rifle accuracy is +160 base and +10 moving. That give you +170 moving since you can add the movement bonus to the base since you will be deducting the movement penalty in the formula. Pistol is +95 base and +30 movement for a total of +125.

Now we also have to factor in the specials. Rifle is +15 so we have a total of +185 moving +175 not moving. Pistol have +50 so we have +175 moving and +145 not moving.

So while moving, and since you said you PvP more than PvE and you know you are moving in PvP, the difference is +10 Rifle. So at close range where a Pistol is +accuracy while a rifle is -accuracy, the Pistol is more accurate at that range bracket. So no, rifles are NOT more accurate at ANY range as you stated.

I guess that would explain why a pistoleer will miss me about 30% more at 20m than a rifleman will at the same range. Something is off in yourcalculations.

Won't work. Riflemen hit the cap at +97 speed I believe. That means they would need a +22 SEA to hit the cap. What would Pistoleers need? None. Why? Because of BH. You could dabble in BH to push your Pistol or Carbine speed up over +75 and you could hit the cap without an SEA's. Sure that is dabbling, but that is an option they would have that rifles would not.

And that would also gate them from dabbling in defense. comes down to a choice speed or power.

Also as a Wookiee I can only wear Wookiee armor. However I have yet to see any Wookiee armor with slots. If Wookiee armor has no slots then Wookiee Riflemen would be gated from hitting the cap.

Then push for sockets to be added into armor.

But what happens if we max the +75 a hard cap like melee/ranged defense? It solves the BH dablling but SEA's wouldn't help you then since it couldn't raise the level past the cap. Just like gettin a SEA of ranged/melee defense won't let you get over +125.

SEA's can push melee and ranged defense as well as dodge/counter/block up to 150, ranged and melee can get as high as 180 with a SL. This info was posted by a Dev. and is not speculation.

However using either example a Pistoleer can hit the cap without SEA's or dabbling in BH. How? Watch.

Lets look at two weapons. A rifle speed 9 highest speed crafted T21 i can find is 7.6 maybe you need a new weaponsmith(about right for a T21) and a pistol speed 3. Lets say they have a special with a time delay of 2. That means to hit the speed cap they need to get that speed down to 0.5 . speed cap is 1.0 Can they? Well at +75 the rifle drops to 2.25 and the pistol to 0.75. With the delay that goes to 4.5 and 1.5 . you add the delay BEFORE you take off the 75% So after delay you're looking at 2.0 (with a 7.6 rifle) vs. 1.3, the much higher damage you'd get with a rifle would more than make up for this. So no cap there. But lets take both weapons to a slicer and get them sliced. We get a 30% speed slice. Now the base speed is 6.3 5.3 and 2.1 . Lets see what happens when we add in our +75 now. Rifle is at 1.575 and after the delay is at 3.15. 1.8 (7.6 rifle with a 30% speed slice) The pistol goes to 0.525 and after the delay 1.05. 1.0 The pistol is for all intents and purposes at the speed cap. Is at the speed cap (can't get any faster) And I didn't even need a SEA. The other option of course is to add a speed powerup. Easily dropping the pistol to the speed cap while the rifle still can not reach it without a SEA.

The pistol in your post is at the speed cap and can't get anymore DPS with SEA's, while the rifle can only get better.

No. You just need to change the delay mods in Pistol and Carbineers to allow a Master to hit the speed cap or come very close to it like Riflemen. They are afterall Masters of their chosen weapon.

So they shoot at the cap, just like a rifleman. Only with much lower damage.

Some would be. But why is there a problem with a ranged profession being anti-melee? Would not some of the melee being anti-Riflemen or Anti-Carbineer? If so why not have their opposite which would bea ranged anti-melee.

Well considering that melee have a bonus to hit pistoleers, while pistoleers have no such bonus to hit melee. this isn't their current role. if it was the other way around you would have an arguement.

I've never said any such thing. We can not be snipers because of the limitations but in. We are infantry with a sniper like ability. That one sniper like ability is ConcealShot.

"Your role for Riflemen seems to be that of the sniper."-- and don't forget sniper shot. we are limited in the sniper roll, but the AP we have gives us a huge advantage. and being the only ones to target a specific pool would be a very nice nitch in the CB.

I like being infantry which is the role of the Rifleman. Carbineer are the assault troops.

Are you that hung up on a title? if you like to lay down area fire, choose a profession that does that. why would a title matter?

Why do you see so many Riflemen and CM's? It's because of the Mind pool. And why is that the target of choice? Because of armor, stim, and buffs.

I don't want to get into an aguement about CM's if you want to talk about them, start another thread. Now about rifles, it's not just about mind. sure we have high AP weapons with high damage. We shoot just as fast or faster than any other profession while dealing out more damage per shot. Area dizzy, and stun. even have the only AP stun weapon in the game. ON TOP of being able to rape the mind pool.

I can't wait to see Mind being removed as the determing factor in PvP even though I don't PvP. It wasn't the main factor until armor, stims, and buffs came out. I'd love to see more professions in PvP.

I can't wait either, but as i see it rifle will still be the only way to go. unless something changes. and making mind healable will not stop the influx of rifleman alone.

However you also can't gimp a profession for PvP without it effecting PvE. Many more people do PvE than PvP and all this balancing for PvP has an adverse effect on PvE. You have to consider both sides. Not just one. Though it seems most of the cries of "nerf Riflemen" seem to be coming from PvP players. Not so much from PvE.

gimp? let me ask you something... When is the last time you were outdamaged for loot rights to a pistoleer or carbineer? or even 2 or 3 of them grouped? How about the pistoleers left at home because someone decided they needed another rifleman in there 10 man team so they could kill the mob's faster?This isn't a gimping, it's a balancing....and i think they are going about it wrong.

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Message Edited by Repaq on 06-09-2004 07:13 PM

Message Edited by Repaq on 06-09-2004 07:16 PM