Rifleman Archive

Jeagoffen is a little B.

K i just realized a huge flaw in my double rifles damage post earlier.I kept seeing riflemen saying they need 3x damage to compensate and just went off that.I realized 3 times would be too much but thought maybe 2x plus the AR difference would be about equal.What i forgot to do was put it in terms of DPS which is what the hard sped cap is really all about.

The number i keep seeing thrown around for pistols is max damage of 300 for fwg5's (non krayt tissue) ok no FWG5 comes close to this on my server atm, but im willing to concede given the right resources it can be done.Well on my server ive seen laser rifles as high as 570 dmg so seeing that our fwg5's are so far behind i think its safe to assume that with the right resources they could get to 600 damage no problem (probably higher but im not a rifleman so can't say for sure) but for arguements sake lets say 600 max damage for a laser rifle.

If the hard cap for pistol remains at 1 second ( and i assure you it will ) and rifles goes to3 second hard capand we put FWG5 up against the laser rifle (our highest damage weapons for both) then in a 3 second span a pistoleer can potentially do 900 damage and rifle only 600.So to even this out you guys wouldn't need double damage you would only need a 50% increase in damage to match the fwg5.Of course this hasn't even factored in theAR differenceso the 50% increase would have to be lowered somewhat.

This doesnt factor in specials tho and this is something that will further skew stuff making the balancing harder.But ya was thinking and then tottaly realized i forgot to put DPS into my equation and the fact that a laser rifle already has double the damage of a FWG5.So your correspondent is correct when he says their no way they would ever double your weapons damage and that 20 to 30% is the best you can hope for.But 20-30% when ya add in the AR factor, then the20-30% seems about right and appropriate.Heck maybe they could evenget 50% to make up for the fact that slower speed also means less specials for you guys.

Noules000, perhaps capping accuracy mods at +100 or +110 might be easier than seperating the BH's pistol mods from those in the Pistoleer tree. They are likely going to be firing at near 1s cap anyway, so I don't see the speed issue as important as accuracy. I just see trying to seperate the skills as more hastle and a more radical change that the Devs would have to go through and that players will complain about than simply capping accuracy. It might be easier to puch through.

Thoughts?

The problem is AR doesnt work, and it hasnt since...forever.

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Cerres wrote:
Noules000, perhaps capping accuracy mods at +100 or +110 might be easier than seperating the BH's pistol mods from those in the Pistoleer tree. They are likely going to be firing at near 1s cap anyway, so I don't see the speed issue as important as accuracy. I just see trying to seperate the skills as more hastle and a more radical change that the Devs would have to go through and that players will complain about than simply capping accuracy. It might be easier to puch through.

Thoughts?

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Speed is a HUGE issue. Even master pistoleers will not be capping with many of their specials using the fastest guns. BH/pistol on the other hand can do so pretty easily. I don't like the capping idea because it will have to be eventually addressed if they ever get tapes or other mods working, or if they introduce elite-elite classes. I'd rather have an open-ended system that allows for expansion. This is the main reason I disagree with the speed caps as proposed by the devs; they need to address the EQUATION, more than the cap.

Sorry Av but im not quite master yet 3 and half blocks to go ( been doing too much mining atm to level much ) but if i were i would be glad to help ya run some tests.Hopefully you and jaegen can work something out, although I must admithis having some BH skills probably wouldn't make him the best person to test against.

I'm glad you dont seem offended that i said i don't knowif i canquite trust your logs but i guess you can see where i wascoming from.

Here's an idea tho, i seen somewhere that they gave the correspondents a character copy to test center.In jaegens case his numbers can't reflect just a true master pistoleer as he has some BH skills.Now i know this isnt a problem for rifleman because their is no class for rifleman to dabble into to get extra bonuses.But other classes do have that option which is a problem.Is it possible for the devs to give you guys just pure master's of your class without the extra skills dabbled from other professions to get accurate results when you guys test?Their would of course be alot of extra skill points left on these test toons maybe they could assign some of these to like the scouts explore line (so u guys aint slow as heck ) and medic skills so you don't have insane downtime when running the tests.

I doubt this is possible, but i don't know not being a correspondent i don't know how much the devs are willing to help you guys out in your testing,but them doing this would seem the best way to get accurate results from tests conducted on TC.

The problem with the test center is there are no weapon smiths anymore. And theres no WS Correspondant.

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Noules000 wrote:

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Cerres wrote:
Noules000, perhaps capping accuracy mods at +100 or +110 might be easier than seperating the BH's pistol mods from those in the Pistoleer tree. They are likely going to be firing at near 1s cap anyway, so I don't see the speed issue as important as accuracy. I just see trying to seperate the skills as more hastle and a more radical change that the Devs would have to go through and that players will complain about than simply capping accuracy. It might be easier to puch through.

Thoughts?

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Speed is a HUGE issue. Even master pistoleers will not be capping with many of their specials using the fastest guns. BH/pistol on the other hand can do so pretty easily. I don't like the capping idea because it will have to be eventually addressed if they ever get tapes or other mods working, or if they introduce elite-elite classes. I'd rather have an open-ended system that allows for expansion. This is the main reason I disagree with the speed caps as proposed by the devs; they need to address the EQUATION, more than the cap.

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Fair enough. You make an excelent point.

I agree with Noules 100% as well. The speed change proposed by the Devs is not the right solution. The problem is the equation itself. It should be linear, not logarithmic.

Why doesnt AR work in PvP? Is this intentional or temporary? Have the devs said? You might consider asking about that since indeed, rifles have the highest AR weapons. Unless you want to get changes to make you balanced now, and then get AR fixed and then have an advantage? I doubt that's your motiviation, but it is a good question to ask the devs. If it's inentional, then yes, we can take that off the list in favor of rifles.

AR hasnt worked forever, and I have tried so many times to bring it to there attention. I will make a post about it in the correspondant forums on the problem, and one of the solutions I had thought up of.

The problem with changing the entire equation, is that takes alot of time. When your pressing to get things done its not really a likely suggestion to change the equation around. Im still not quite sure what the equation is, I havnt seen it.

But currently the pistoleer bonuses on styles, Im not sure if all are very high. All thats really needed is for them to be reduced, or to have a larger negative effect at max range. As you can see from the tests, the 60 meters while both standing using styles, was 90 percent accuracy. That happens to be alot, while if you look at one of our rifleman accuracy tests, I think my accuracy at 60 meters both standing was 75 percent, Im not sure I will have to look again.

However I used an E11, wich has a bit different mod set up then a FWG5. Oh btw, the FWG5 on that test was -

0 Point blank

+26 20 meters

-70 64 meters

I think my E11 is something like

-60 0 meters (point blank)

(something) at 50 meters I think +24

I forgot the rest, but I know its -60 at 0 meters, wich makes it a bit off.

Also, Im prefectly find with this hard cap on speed, but in order to make up for it range needs to be adjusted so its in our advantage at long range. While the original proposal was bad becuase you can kite to avoid styles. I can see that in the pistoelers eyes, the problem is I cant run around and hit targets very well, and I get a limtied amount of shots.

Oh way back in the front someone mentioned how almost all pistoleer styles are ranom pool. They are the exact same for us, every singe one is a random pool but head shot and mind shot. Same thing for them body shot, and I forgot what there health bleed shots name is. And all body shots, and head shots, and leg shots have very small multipliers and are pretty much crap.

Hey Noules, your precision number is not correct.

The accuracy test is the same as the weighted coin problem (eg if a coin is not perfectly balanced, how many coin flips do you need to determine that and what's your accuracy)? It's a simple formula using the gaussion distribution to solve.

For 139 data points, the accuracy is +/- 13% point, so the true accuracies are

62% to 88% while standing/standing/autofire

77% to 103% standing/standing/BS3

49% to 75% moving/moving/style

What this means it the data point is utterly useless since the true autofire could be 88% and BS3 be 77%.

If you want 1% accuracy, you'll need 5,000 datapoint.

But that's beside the point. If accuracy is the issue, fix the accuracy modifer. Why introduce some unwieldly concept like a range cap?