Ranger Archive
Thread: Limiting us from 2/3 of the game.
Crafters cant fight, but they can craft. Combats cant craft but they can fight. Entertainers cant heal but they can entertain. Healers cant entertain but they can heal. Rangers cant fight, cant craft, cant heal, cant entertain, and cant hunt critters. See the difference.
raziviWH wrote:
And in this we wait (quite some time) on the devs to decide our fate.
Either:
They rework ranger or the CU to fit us into it (which, as things have shown so far will draw our skills/abilities farther away from the spirit of what a ranger is). Making us viable in all three parts of COMBT: creatures, NPC, and player.
Or:
They changemost or all our skills (alter current ones or make new ones with a revamp) to make us into better creature killers and big game hunters. Making us more sought after for resource harvesting, creature attacking groups, creature soloing, ect. But leave us out of or limited in NPC and player combat.
It boils down to what people what from the profession really. Argue the point if you want, but its true. Some want the 'cool' ranger skills and still want to be able to kill anything that moves. Others don't want to lose sight of the spirit of the profession. And others still are really not sure what they want.
In the end, only one thing remains simple. Each profession is cut off from another part of the game. There is no way around it. Crafters can't fight. Combaters can't Craft. Entertainers can't Heal. Healers can't Entertain. Or any combination of the forementioned.
We should not be like the jedi forums and demand to be 'uber' at every aspect of the game. Perhaps we should get into the theme of the rest of the professions and accept that there are part of the game Ranger can not/should not do. I mean honestly, can you tell me how scouting and trapping exp should make me better at killing the Bounty Hunter next to me? I can tell you how his three branches of weapon exp and one branch of investigation makes him better at killing me.
Rangers are of nature and the things that live in nature, our skills should reflect this. Not all skills should be creature specific, but scouting and trapping should not make a pvp template.
Perhaps I'm talking to the wrong people. I'm getting the feeling from some of these replies that some people just want to kill things and not think about staying true to what the ranger profession was supposed to be, an explorer and a survivalist, not a killing machine.
I'm a Ranger, not a Professional Killer from the Hills. How about you?
Raz-
Starson wrote:
I don't understand what npc's you can't kill as a Ranger. Maybe its because I am Mtka, but I have been doing faction missions the last couple weeks, just for a change of pace. I really don't have a problem solo'n lvl 82 imp destroy missions solo. Camo works....CAMO WORKS.....It sorta gives me a ninja feel, I can go up to a target, engage, and in most cases 95% of the time, none of the other 'agressive' imp. targets from the same mission will see my lumping up their mate. I have found the storm trooper squad leaders allmost allways see me tho, but I can still take 2, 3 if i use one stim d.
Our creature to hit, and accuacry bonuses do work. I have noticed a difference in my dizzy state, and armor break (the only 2 state specials that I have since I chose only one combat profession (tka), since Ranger don't really count) do not stick as often against npc's, it drops to around 70 maybe 80% on a good day.
I don't want the same bonuses to hit npc's or pc's as I have for critters, I just want to be equal to every other combat class in the game. I want what few traps that do work, to work against npc's and pc's. H*** the traps don't do a lot of debuffing, just a little, so what is the problem.
I really don't think the Ranger comunity wants to be the l33test killing machine in the game, better at beasties yes, but just plane equal to every other combat profession in the game.
Agreed that areatrack is useful, especially before a conflict begins. Once it starts tho... much less useful, especially if some NPC or Player decides to come after you, the Ranger. 
I'm not sure where the confusion or idea that many of us asking for Ranger to not be limited to "creature only" for our skills somehow translates to "oh, you're being like jedi, wanting to be uber at everything.". No. Not at all. If you read through the proposals from Phen and Owen, if you look at what me, Op and many others are saying... we do NOT want to be "uber at everything". I do not expect, nor do I necessarily WANT, Ranger to be a high damage profession in and of itself. Ranger should be able to let me MAXIMIZE a high damage profession, like Rifleman, if I choose to, against any opponent I choose to engage. I never said I wanted Ranger to be uber at everything... in fact, I've long argued that if a Ranger wants "high damage", then that's what comes from the Rifleman side of your template, for example. The Ranger side should, however, make being a Ranger/Rifle that much MORE effective - better / longer states, "enhancing" damage thru careful application of states and debuffs via traps, ability to get in and get out and apply the damage from rifles when I want to, not when the mob wants to, etc.
IMHO, the thing a Ranger should be "uber" at is survival and stealth. Anything related to damage should be enhancing some OTHER part of your template, or geared much more to defense and keeping you alive vs laying the hurt on the OTHER guy.
Hmm after reading my last post i thought it sounded a little too blunt. I missed a few 
here and there so dont think im ranting or yelling or anything hehe, just rushing through a post before i eat 
Lighthearted as always
I'll finalize my thoughts on the Ranger Revamp.
A person can master Scout and Ranger without picking up a weapon. They require no Combat exp. They require no Weapon exp. THAT is why Ranger is a 'creature first' profession in combat and skills and hopefully will remain so. When one of our trees REQUIRES combat or weapon exp then I'll conceed that our skills and talents should be universal. But all of our exp is gain from CREATURES. Bounty Hunters gain exp, weapon and combat, from killing all things. Thats why their skills are universal. Not once can you get scout exp from harvesting from players or NPCs. Not once could you get trapping exp from NPCs or players. Even survival exp, when we had it, was making things for wilderness use and protection from hostile creatures (not that the HTFB's fense worked).
The skills of a profession should ALWAYS reflect the exp needed to gain said skills. This in mind, we must maintain Ranger as a 'nature and creature' first skill set unless they change the exp requirements. Does that mean 'nature and creature' only? Heck no! Our skills can remain 'nature and creature' first and still be useful against players and NPCs. Some of our current ones already do. Terrain Negotiation is universal but started with nature in mind. Tracking is universal but started with nature and creatures in mind. Some, if not all, of our skills can and should be made to be used on all form of opponents as long as 'nature and creatures' come first in a skill's creation and design. Once we start getting skills that do not fit with the ragner's 'nature and creature' theme, we turn into a cookiee cutter combat profession.
Modifiers. Defensive modifiers are a ranger ability, in my opinion. Dodging and blocking a claw/beak is the same as a sword or blaster. Offensive Modifiers are a bit harder. I cannot honestly see how fighting creatures makes me better at knowing how and where to hit Bob the Brawler. Maybe a speed modifer, but not to-hit modifiers.
Traps. I'm in agreement that some, not all, traps should be universal.
The single target traps that cause dizzy, stun, ect. are the ones I feel should not affect NPCs and players. In the hussle of city life, blasters fire, lightsabers swinging, swoops racing, spaceship engines roaring, I cant see a humanoid getting bothered by a loud noise or painful spur as a creature.
Glow juice, Wire mesh, and Stink Bombs: Should be universal. I can splash glow juice on a person as easily as a nuna. I can tangle two legs as easily as four. I can even see people being affected by a strong smell. (Ever upset a skunk?)
Adhesive Mesh and P-Dart: Could they be Universal, yes. Its more of a balance issue with these two for me. A repeatable snare/root (when they are not bugged) that is on different timers than your weapon and doesn't cause you to lose an attack might be a bit much in pvp. A dev judgement call.
To sum up. A profession's skills MUST reflect two things: the spirit of the profession and the exp needed for the profession. Asking for rangers to be better at killing people without requiring them to kill people to master the profession is like asking for rifle modifiers for TKA, doesn't make sense.
I'm all for making ranger more useful and more effective in combat and in general, but not at the cost of the spirit of the profession. If I wanted to be a killer, I would be a different profession. Rangers should focus on defense modifiers and skills based on nature/creatures first and then NPCs and players, like tracking.
Ranger, not akiller from the hills.
Raz-
Offensive Modifiers are a bit harder. I cannot honestly see how fighting creatures makes me better at knowing how and where to hit Bob the Brawler. Maybe a speed modifer, but not to-hit modifiers.
Anatomy.
Who knows anatomy better than someone that deals in it every day? Rangers would quite possibly have the greatest exposure to xenobiology in the galaxy. (Doctors would have a better understanding of the specifics of humanoid anatomy, but Rangers deal with far more species and just need to know what to hit.)
A person that knows anatomy can take down their target faster and far more efficiently than one that does not.
So I see accuracy and damage modifiers as being more reasonable than speed modifiers.
raziviWH wrote:
I'll finalize my thoughts on the Ranger Revamp.
A person can master Scout and Ranger without picking up a weapon. They require no Combat exp. They require no Weapon exp. THAT is why Ranger is a 'creature first' profession in combat and skills and hopefully will remain so. When one of our trees REQUIRES combat or weapon exp then I'll conceed that our skills and talents should be universal. But all of our exp is gain from CREATURES. Bounty Hunters gain exp, weapon and combat, from killing all things.
Raz-
We have this already. Ever toss a trap outside of combat? No, because trapping is purely a combat skill. It has no purpose outside of combat, it doesn't exist outside of combat. It may currently be limited to pvcreature combat, but, given the changes made during the CU (which we were 'outside of the scope' of excepting the CL bonus), the argument that our traps should be limited to pvcreature no longer exists. Not when every combat prof now has the equivalent (if not better) of our traps.
Trapping xp is combat xp, plain and simple. It is also no longer necessary (if it ever was) or right that it continue to be limited to creatures.
In regards to the second thing in bold... Bounty hunters kill all things because they can. They aren't limited like we are. Duelist stance works against creatures, even though they have no concept of gunfighting. Confusion shot works despite the differences in what might confuse a humanoid and a nonhumanoid brain. Critical shot works because apparently knowing where to place a shot on a humanoid gives a BH a good idea as to where to place a shot on a creature. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with not being able to apply creature knowledge in the other direction.
There have been a lot of comparisons between ranger and BH. Thematically, we are similar-- they hunt people (for their content) while we hunt animals (because that's all we can do). Mechanically, however, we're closer to combat medics. CM's, like us, can master without touching a weapon. This doesn't stop them from getting mods, nor does it prevent them from using their specials against any target they desire. One would imagine that the combat medic's knowledge of physiology is humanoid, yet with no creature knowledge whatsoever, they can apply their skills without penalty or limitation.
Why is it so mind-boggling that many of us want the same freedom?
al-djinn'i
Master Ranger
?I guess to sum up, the devs need to go back to the drawing board WITH SOME OF THIS COMMUNITIES IDEAS IN HAND, and rebuild this profession from the ground up. The foundation for this profession as it currently stands is faulty and not up to code. You can't build upon a bad foundation. If you don't know why, then take an engineering class.
)?I guess to sum up, the devs need to go back to the drawing board WITH SOME OF THIS COMMUNITIES IDEAS IN HAND, and rebuild this profession from the ground up. The foundation for this profession as it currently stands is faulty and not up to code. You can't build upon a bad foundation. If you don't know why, then take an engineering class.
Message Edited by RohmEnari on 09-11-2005 11:22 PM