Ranger Archive
Thread: Limiting us from 2/3 of the game.
Okay I am contributing a little late in the thread. However, I wanted to point out that no matter what combination of professions you use in your character template, you are only limited from the part of the game you limit yourself from.
Message Edited by Amsaran on 09-12-2005 08:37 AM
Amsaran wrote:
I'm not left out of any part of the game.
That's not really the important question though. See, this is where people are getting confused. Does being a Ranger stop you, as a complete toon, from participating in any part of the game? Certainly not. Heck, I could PvP with a Master Dancer/Master Musician/Novice Marksman, if I really wanted to. You can do PvP/PvNPC/PvCreature Combat with ANY toon, it's all a matter of how effective you are.
The important question here is: does being a Ranger help you in any benefitial way other than the health bonus/CL bonus in those circumstances? Does having Ranger in your template rather than an alternative profession help you perform in all aspects of the game. The answer for me is no. I'm a MBH/Master Ranger. I know that swtiching my template to MBH/MCM/M Pistoleer would actually help me hunt Krayts much faster since I could apply the same root/snared states as well as pile on DOTs. I choose Ranger because I find it fun to roleplay the profession and I love the camps as well as the community. But being a Ranger does hinder me when I do BH marks. If had another profession that could apply states/apply DOTs/provided more defense, I'd be a more effective fighter against NPCs and players...but I'd also be better against creatures, I think.
That's the point here. Your template will never stop you from trying other aspects of the game, but every other combat profession is universal in design. I can, as just a BH, hunt creatures and use all my specials. I can't, as a Ranger, hunt an NPC and use all my specials. As just a Ranger, my only option against an NPC is to use a CL54 weapon...with just the standard attack. Or drop a HTFB on his head and hope he falls through the environment.
Of course as a Ranger/Pistoleer you can fight in PvP...but does being a Ranger help you in any fashion? That +10 to defense won't make much of a difference, nor will the health bonus. In PvP, your fully templated toon is only as good as the other combat professions you have, and that's the problem here.
My answer would have to be yes. I use Ranger fully.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Amsaran wrote:
I'm not left out of any part of the game.
That's not really the important question though. See, this is where people are getting confused. Does being a Ranger stop you, as a complete toon, from participating in any part of the game? Certainly not. Heck, I could PvP with a Master Dancer/Master Musician/Novice Marksman, if I really wanted to. You can do PvP/PvNPC/PvCreature Combat with ANY toon, it's all a matter of how effective you are.
The important question here is: does being a Ranger help you in any benefitial way other than the health bonus/CL bonus in those circumstances? Does having Ranger in your template rather than an alternative profession help you perform in all aspects of the game. The answer for me is no. I'm a MBH/Master Ranger. I know that swtiching my template to MBH/MCM/M Pistoleer would actually help me hunt Krayts much faster since I could apply the same root/snared states as well as pile on DOTs. I choose Ranger because I find it fun to roleplay the profession and I love the camps as well as the community. But being a Ranger does hinder me when I do BH marks. If had another profession that could apply states/apply DOTs/provided more defense, I'd be a more effective fighter against NPCs and players...but I'd also be better against creatures, I think.
That's the point here. Your template will never stop you from trying other aspects of the game, but every other combat profession is universal in design. I can, as just a BH, hunt creatures and use all my specials. I can't, as a Ranger, hunt an NPC and use all my specials. As just a Ranger, my only option against an NPC is to use a CL54 weapon...with just the standard attack. Or drop a HTFB on his head and hope he falls through the environment.
Of course as a Ranger/Pistoleer you can fight in PvP...but does being a Ranger help you in any fashion? That +10 to defense won't make much of a difference, nor will the health bonus. In PvP, your fully templated toon is only as good as the other combat professions you have, and that's the problem here.
raziviWH wrote:
I'll finalize my thoughts on the Ranger Revamp.
A person can master Scout and Ranger without picking up a weapon. They require no Combat exp. They require no Weapon exp. THAT is why Ranger is a 'creature first' profession in combat and skills and hopefully will remain so. When one of our trees REQUIRES combat or weapon exp then I'll conceed that our skills and talents should be universal. But all of our exp is gain from CREATURES.
What do you have to say about Creature Handlers then? If you believe that the XP must always reflect the skills, then shouldn't Creature Handler pets only work against other creatures? If your view is to remain valid, then you'd have to believe that it is improper for a person to sic a Rancor on another player or on an NPC. Personally, I have no problem believing that a Rancor would bite the head off of a person if their master told them too. In fact, in the movies, the ONLY thing we see a rancor eating is a humanoid. So yeah, I think that's a pretty good reflection of what's going on.
Also, in your view, a person gets no experience from killing other players...ever. You get PvP rating, but that doesn't help your skills, does it? Thus, using your logic, I must deduce that no weapons should ever hurt another player. Sure, you can duel, but since the XP must reflect the skills, and you get no XP from people, no skills should be able to be used on players except healing. Thus, no player should be able to damage another since players don't generate XP.
If you've read the proposals for Rangers, you'd know that we'd also like the ability for our skills to work on NPCs and players. Thus trapping XP (a COMBAT skill) would give XP for humanoids and for animals. There, our XP would reflect our skills.
What you are using is called "circular logic". You say the XP should reflect the skills, but are unwilling to accept that if we changed the skills, the XP itself would change in nature, providing the backup for more universalist skills. If traps work on humanoids, and we get XP for using them on NPCs, we'd be like other professions. We'd get XP for using combat specials against NPC and creature targets, but not PvP targets. That's exactly how the other professions work. So by changing the skill, you change the nature of the XP, which then adheres to your principle of the XP must reflect the skills.
In essence, you're arguing that the "spirit" of Ranger must remain. But your idea of Ranger spirit might be different that mine, or anybody elses. Do you really claim to have the one principle "spirit" and that no other views of Ranger are true to the "spirit" of Ranger? I should hope not. Since there is not one view of what Ranger is, is it not true that the "spirit" of Ranger is universal in nature, and that our skills should reflect the many different ideas of what Ranger could and should be? That makes more sense to me than to limit us because of what some people consider the spirit to be. If I want my Ranger to be an Army Ranger (in truth, I don't), and I believe the spirit of Ranger to be that, does that mean we shouldn't be able to hunt creatures? Of course not.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and everybody should have the right to play Ranger as they wish, with their skills working in whatever aspect of the game they so choose. Making us universalist in combat doesn't change the spirit of our content (Wilderness-centric or "The Outdoorsman") but simply allows us to be on par with other combat professions. You can still play your Ranger in the "spirit" you see fit, but it doesn't limit others from playing their Ranger in the "spirit" they see fit. Your view limits the viewpoints of others, which is never a good thing.
Amsaran wrote:
My answer would have to be yes. I use Ranger fully.
Then the question becomes, what Ranger skills are you using in PvP or PvNPC that will make you as effective as a Master Rifleman, Master Bounty Hunter?
Amsaran wrote:
My answer would have to be yes. I use Ranger fully.
Alrighty, 
I just had my 2nd cup of coffee and think I am tracking with you now.
I think with regard to combat, I would say I usevery fewof my Ranger skills outside ofgoing upagainst "creatures." My traps mean nothing on NPCs or other players. Area track and Camoare the only things I can use with regard to them. Sometimes Camo works and sometimes it doesn't. When I think about it, I use my"/cover" fromRifleman more than Camo but use both together becauseof Ranger-habit. TN etc., mean nothing to me because I don't think about them while I am playing.
Being that I think in terms of environment with regard to Ranger, I really don't expect much from how any of my Ranger skills work outside of against creatures. I see now...that I am using more of my Rifles skills when it comes to combat rather than Ranger.
Does that make me a bad person now? hehe
Nonetheless, I am too dang lazy to grind out another profession. I can only hope that what is broke is fixed some day. The funny thing is if it were--or not--I would probably not even notice. 
Phenix1050 wrote:
Amsaran wrote:
My answer would have to be yes. I use Ranger fully.
Answer me how you use your RANGER skills fully in every aspect of combat. Your TN running speed caps out at Master Scout, so unless you're crawling around in PvP combat, you're not using your Ranger skills there. Again, I'm talking about once you are already in combat, getting shot at. I don't crawl in PvP because I'm a stitting duck for melee peeps. Traps don't work in PvP or PvNPC. You can't place a camp during combat. You cannont area track during combat. You cannot apply camo during combat. The combat skill /rescue doesn't work post-CU.
Again, what RANGER skills are you using during your fight? The only bonus a Master Ranger has is the +10 to ranged and melee defense and the creature level/health bonus. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I really don't see how you can substantiate a claim that you're using Ranger skills fully DURING combat.
Message Edited by Amsaran on 09-12-2005 09:48 AM
I know it's reiterating a point I've already made, tbh, but it's relevant to recent posts.
Take a Master Doc (no other skills) and a master Ranger (no other skills) one has a ranged/melee defence of 50, the other of 10 (guess which is which). Both have a CL of 54, both can use the exact same weapon. Doc can heal, Ranger can use traps (against creatures only) and will have +25 to hit (again, against creatures only). To be honest, I'm not sure which one would be more effective in combat against creatures. But Doc will certainly be more effective against npc's.
Oh, and in response to the post about ranger can be mastered without combat,(& thereforehints thatRanger shouldn't have combat skills) Hmm, not sure about that. Maskscent give you some, ok - but you've got to get that skill in the first place. Camps? Well, yes - now that it's no longer wilderness survival. Harvesting, the main source of xp? You need to kill the creature first!
raziviWH wrote:
When I referred to our Scouting and Trapping exp vs the Combat and Weapon exp of the Bounty Hunters I merely meant Bounty Hunter exp is based on the killing of things to attain knowledge and skills where Ranger exp has nothing to do with the actual killing but the interacting with the living, and in the case of harvesting...salavaging the dead.
Once again, read the entire post and try not to get hung up on the first section.
The exp to skill point I was making was skills should be made with exp in mind FIRST, not only. My last two posts clearly stated I am in agreement that some, if not all of our skills should be universal, i.e. my example of tracking. My only concern and issue is that we start to drift away from the 'creature and nature' theme that is ranger and is howour exp gained just to be more effective in a fight. It is NOT my desire or intentions that Rangers should ever, EVER be creature only skills and/or abilities. Judging by your replies, I've failed to make this point clear somehow. I just dont want us to start getting half-baked idea skills/abilities the devs toss to us to make us better in a fight that make no sense whatsoever in a ranger's world, like a TKA getting rifle mods for example.
Raz-