Ranger Archive
Thread: Rangers!! When camo kit goes live........
Zadioc wrote:No clue why they made camo kits usable by everybody, you have 0 chance of ever getting the kit to work unless your master ranger than maybe 1 in a million shot of it working.
Read my post "You don't have that skill". I think you'll find that things have changed.
Almagill wrote:
[a big, steaming pile of common sense, eloquently phrased]
Almagill wrote:
There is quite literally now no reason to take or keep the concealment line of Ranger EXCEPT as a CRAFTER making the kits to sell on.
I grow weary of repeating myself, it appears that every single attempt I've made to bring clairvoyance to this thread was fallen into the pit of flames. But I will try one more time. The only difference between now and before is that a ranger no longer has to physically apply the camo to a non-ranger. That is the only difference. How does the fact that the ranger no longer has to be physically standing right next to the non-ranger decrease the uniqueness of the profession, or change the profession in any (negative) way? I CANNOT COMPREHEND THIS!
Almagill wrote:
Me? Personally I'm going to pick up a crate of Dath cammo kits [from] a local master ranger and I no longer need to retake that entire line of Ranger.
You just shot your argument in the proverbial foot with this statement. If every ranger thought this way, you would have difficulty getting those dath kits wouldn't you! Looks like you are going to have to rely ona ranger who took that "worthless" branch if you want to camo yourself eh? It is remarkable to me that no one else (besides one or two people) can see the irony (nay, the hypocrisy)in this...
ComCypher wrote:
I grow weary of repeating myself, it appears that every single attempt I've made to bring clairvoyance to this thread was fallen into the pit of flames. But I will try one more time. The only difference between now and before is that a ranger no longer has to physically apply the camo to a non-ranger. That is the only difference. How does the fact that the ranger no longer has to be physically standing right next to the non-ranger decrease the uniqueness of the profession, or change the profession in any (negative) way? I CANNOT COMPREHEND THIS!
Honest answer? Because up until now, no one outside of Rangers ever bothered to get camo. Through lack of knowledge, or the difficulty in tracking down a Ranger, or who knows why. But now everyone can be a Junior Ranger simply by popping by their local vendor.Camo has become common place. Not unique. Not special. Common. The skill you got in return? The ability to be a merchant.
Just doesn't seem like a fair trade to me. 
Eavik wrote:
I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me WHY it's better to apply the camo ourselves rather than letting the end user apply the product. Because this whole "uniqueness" thing just isn't doing it. The only thing application gives us is what I described above - following people around as they run menial errands, or spamming in starports...or just hoarding the kits to ourselves and never using them - like we had before.
Eavik -
Message Edited by AragornSoS on 05-27-2005 02:16 PM
AragornSoS wrote:
By actually changing the camo kits to an item that can now be used by all, the Devs have done a great disservice to the crafters, who THINK they're going to get a useful item but will actually purchase something that is almost guaranteed to break, and will most certainly guarantee them an incap, and quite possibly atrip to the cloner, EVERY time it breaks. Now, I'm fairly certain that when a doc buffs me, or when I use a stim or some spice or food, I'm going to get some value for the use, and I'm not going to have a guaranteed trip to the cloner when the item fails or wears out. But wait!!! - Spices and enhancers don't fail, they just last for some amount of time, so as long as I'm smart and pay attention to the buff timers and downer effects, I'll never suffer any ill effects at all through the use of spices or buffs. Not so with camo. I actually personally have an ethics issue with selling camo to crafters, knowing full well that it isn't going to solve their issue. I've camo'd people probably hundreds of time in the game, and I'd MUCH prefer that I camo them, and at least give them a fighting chance to not have it break on the first MOB that makes a check on thier camo. I won't be mass producing kits to sell for the simple reason that I would know I would be selling a useless product, and in fact a product MORE likely to get that person killed- not IF it fails, but WHEN. I WILL continue to make myself availble to crafter friends to apply camo as needed, or help escort them out to their factories or shops and clear the way as necessary. I've done that for some time now, and I'll continue to do it since to me, THAT is more the Ranger way than standing in the basement of my house at my craft machine churning out camo packs that are next to useless.
And again, you are making an assumption that this will offer even 5% success to crafters, nevermind the 20% success you reference earlier. You have repeatedly stated that you don't use camo at all, and have only now started making kits for the first time ever. So where are you basing this info on? I'm a Master Ranger with bio clothes that I use when I'm using camo (and yes, I use it frequently on Dathomir for tips out and about to the Village and where Nightsisters be.). I DO use camo, a lot - more often when I know I'll be dealing with or near lots of NPCs and want at least some chance to slip by unnoticed. And it breaks, even with my Master Ranger mods and bio clothes, a lot. I would be exceptionally surprised if crafters, with no camo mods, even managed to see 5% success. You're assuming some amount of success, and happy to say "well, if they manage to make it by that 1 agro creature, that's one that it saved them from.".
The reality is, for those of us who actually play a Ranger and use all 4 trees (even with broken skills and issues and all, I still camp, trap, camo and track to enhance my gameplay), we realize that avoiding that 1 creature is going to be largely pointless. If you avoid 10 creatures, but number 11 breaks the camo and kills you before you get to your harvester, that's not success, that's failure. Doesn't matter if you avoided "some" stuff, you're still dead. The camo still failed. Did it delay your death by 15 or 20seconds? Maybe. Did it allow you to avoid agro and successfully complete your task (tending harvesters or whatever)? No. So that's failure my friend. The camo did nothing to protect you from the real issue (the CL damage multiplier issue), and in fact most likely ensured your demise when it broke. If you think that crafters are somehow going to be able to apply camo to themselves and even make it from the outpost to the village (hey, we've all seen those huge harvester and factory farms out there now on the plains) even one time without it breaking, you really haven't used it and don't know what you're talking about. I MIGHT be able to make a trip from the outpost to the village, on foot, and only have camo break once, MAYBE twice, on a very lucky day, if I take a lot of extra time going around things and still hope that the server doesn't decide that now is a good time to spawn a few Nightsisters on top of my head as I'm working around that grouping of spiders over there, and the flyers next to them. A crafter relying on nothing more than the camo pack they bought from you and applied themselves is going to be dead regardless of whether or not they use the camo - and it's even more likley that they'll be less careful thinking they have this useful buff, which is only going to cause it to break that much faster. How many crafters are going to be willing to walk 4000m or more out to a harvester grouping to ensure that the camo they bought and applied has SOME chance of not breaking (since it'll break LOT faster on a mount or a speeder or swoop).
SmedleyLlama wrote:
ComCypher wrote:
I grow weary of repeating myself, it appears that every single attempt I've made to bring clairvoyance to this thread was fallen into the pit of flames. But I will try one more time. The only difference between now and before is that a ranger no longer has to physically apply the camo to a non-ranger. That is the only difference. How does the fact that the ranger no longer has to be physically standing right next to the non-ranger decrease the uniqueness of the profession, or change the profession in any (negative) way? I CANNOT COMPREHEND THIS!
Honest answer? Because up until now, no one outside of Rangers ever bothered to get camo. Through lack of knowledge, or the difficulty in tracking down a Ranger, or who knows why. But now everyone can be a Junior Ranger simply by popping by their local vendor.Camo has become common place. Not unique. Not special. Common. The skill you got in return? The ability to be a merchant.
Just doesn't seem like a fair trade to me.
So basically you are upset that people are more aware of how to get camo'ed, and in your mind this "new knowledge" has decreased the uniqueness and mystery of the rangers. Kind of a strange explanation but I guess that's the only way to rationalize it
.
Eavik wrote:
And I still disagree with this. Like I said before - even if the camo kits work on Lvl 1 crafters only 20% of the time. Even if they only work 5% of the time, it's still better than having no camouflage or mask scent at all.
Eavik is a crafter, that's that's the only explanation. Probably has Ranger as his alt for his Armorsmith. So now his armorsmith primary character can go out andlive across a20% longer distance to the harvestor.
Along with all the other arguments Eavik, the problem here is that 20% or 50% or even 80%farther isn't enough to get you to the village where you canconvert your craftingexp toFSexp. You'll still die, and clone and have to start over. And when that camo breaks, you don't just have the potential to get aggroed, you are already on the defensive. When it breaks it's because you got hit by something, and you know what that means.
And it's not just our skill that got changed, but it's our ROLE. One of the major things that made us useful in a group just got turned into something akin to staying home, stockpiling supplies and making schematics. It wasn't until I picked up Combat Medic for a few monthslastyear that I ever made a schematic or used afactory. I made my traps and camps on the fly inbetween battles. REAL rangers don't even need homes, let alonefactories.And according to my testingcamo wasn't evenrewritten for a higher percentage for Rangers orfor Ranger Camoapplied to others. And the percentage to non-Rangers is low enough that you'll need to provide a disclaimer whenever you apply or sell them.
On top of that, not only did they change our role in the game but they also destroyed any potential that the skill might have in the future for higher level and GCW/PvP effectiveness. As it stands now,camo kitscannot possibly be used to drop someone off the radar, or make them invisible.And this change in potential is the single biggest problem with everyone having access to our camo.
ComCypher wrote:
So basically you are upset that people are more aware of how to get camo'ed, and in your mind this "new knowledge" has decreased the uniqueness and mystery of the rangers. Kind of a strange explanation but I guess that's the only way to rationalize it
Nope. Educating the masses is one thing. Handing out diplomas without a day in class is another.
SeanBlader wrote:
Eavik is a crafter, that's that's the only explanation. Probably has Ranger as his alt for his Armorsmith. So now his armorsmith primary character can go out andlive across a20% longer distance to the harvestor.
Along with all the other arguments Eavik, the problem here is that 20% or 50% or even 80%farther isn't enough to get you to the village where you canconvert your craftingexp toFSexp. You'll still die, and clone and have to start over. And when that camo breaks, you don't just have the potential to get aggroed, you are already on the defensive. When it breaks it's because you got hit by something, and you know what that means.
And it's not just our skill that got changed, but it's our ROLE. One of the major things that made us useful in a group just got turned into something akin to staying home, stockpiling supplies and making schematics. It wasn't until I picked up Combat Medic for a few monthslastyear that I ever made a schematic or used afactory. I made my traps and camps on the fly inbetween battles. REAL rangers don't even need homes, let alonefactories.And according to my testingcamo wasn't evenrewritten for a higher percentage for Rangers orfor Ranger Camoapplied to others. And the percentage to non-Rangers is low enough that you'll need to provide a disclaimer whenever you apply or sell them.
On top of that, not only did they change our role in the game but they also destroyed any potential that the skill might have in the future for higher level and GCW/PvP effectiveness. As it stands now,camo kitscannot possibly be used to drop someone off the radar, or make them invisible.And this change in potential is the single biggest problem with everyone having access to our camo.
Eavik wrote:
SeanBlader wrote:
Eavik is a crafter, that's that's the only explanation. Probably has Ranger as his alt for his Armorsmith. So now his armorsmith primary character can go out andlive across a20% longer distance to the harvestor.
Along with all the other arguments Eavik, the problem here is that 20% or 50% or even 80%farther isn't enough to get you to the village where you canconvert your craftingexp toFSexp. You'll still die, and clone and have to start over. And when that camo breaks, you don't just have the potential to get aggroed, you are already on the defensive. When it breaks it's because you got hit by something, and you know what that means.
And it's not just our skill that got changed, but it's our ROLE. One of the major things that made us useful in a group just got turned into something akin to staying home, stockpiling supplies and making schematics. It wasn't until I picked up Combat Medic for a few monthslastyear that I ever made a schematic or used afactory. I made my traps and camps on the fly inbetween battles. REAL rangers don't even need homes, let alonefactories.And according to my testingcamo wasn't evenrewritten for a higher percentage for Rangers orfor Ranger Camoapplied to others. And the percentage to non-Rangers is low enough that you'll need to provide a disclaimer whenever you apply or sell them.
On top of that, not only did they change our role in the game but they also destroyed any potential that the skill might have in the future for higher level and GCW/PvP effectiveness. As it stands now,camo kitscannot possibly be used to drop someone off the radar, or make them invisible.And this change in potential is the single biggest problem with everyone having access to our camo.
Ugh. Again with the not a real Ranger nonsense. Try reading my signature - it has all my professions listed there.
I'm not the one dropping Master and skill trees. I'm not the one staging a cute little "sit-in". I'm not the one boycotting one of our own skills.
I'm actually having fun as a Master Ranger, and getting some use out of the skill that everybody else is dropping - yet that makes me the bad guy. Somehow, the fact that I want to keep and use my Master Ranger makes me some kind of "fake" Ranger wannabe. Brilliant logic you guys have here.
I guess if I want to be a "real" Ranger in this community, I should just drop Ranger and complain more often. Thanks, but no thanks.
Again, we bring up the usefulness of the camo kits, which still confuses me. Seems like you are arguing against yourself. We're supposed to be upset because we gave our "skill" out to everybody for free. Yet we're also upset because the "skill" isn't very good - and nobody is going to want to use it.
Huh?
"On top of that, not only did they change our role in the game but they also destroyed any potential that the skill might have in the future for higher level and GCW/PvP effectiveness. As it stands now,camo kitscannot possibly be used to drop someone off the radar, or make them invisible.And this change in potential is the single biggest problem with everyone having access to our camo."
No. They didn't... and Yes, They can. Read my posts. There is nothing stopping our revamp from making these exact same camo kits that everybody can usegive us stealth. Just build it into the camouflage modifiers. With a +100 camo skill mod, camo kits drop you from radar. Real tough.
Nothing? Are you sure?
Really?
Because from what I can see, if they would give the abilities to RIflemen and Jedi outside of their revamps, then what chance do we have since we have been asking for this for 2 years?
There are chances, and they are the logic of the Devs, the opinions of the Devs, the restrictions imposed on the Devs by their supervisors or "higher ups," and whether or not someone will complain that giving us radar invisibility as well would be unbalancing.