Ranger Archive

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Temujin23 wrote:

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Almagill wrote:


Oh I love a quick frell in the morning....

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Best track down your significant other and make with the sweet talk. The Quick Frell Engineering, as it were.

al-djinn'i

Master Ranger

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Message Edited by ComCypher on 05-27-2005 05:27 PM

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1. Non-rangers could always wear camo


2. Non-rangers canonly acquire camo kits from rangers (that's you guys!)


3. If you don't like to craft, then don't craft (just like always)


4. If you insist on being "sociable" by applying the camo to others yourself, you can still do so (the effectiveness will even be improved!)


5. Rangers now have a new source of income (it doesn't matter if you need the money, this is a good thing in general)


6. The uniqueness of the ranger profession is preserved because only rangers can craft the kits

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ComCypher wrote:

Okay I have retyped my deleted post (to the best of my memory)...I don't think there is anything against the forum guidlines in here so I would appreciate it if the overzealous forum moderator doesn't delete this again.

I have enumerated my case in a neat, indesputable list of points so that it will be easy to read and understand.

1. Non-rangers could always wear camo


2. Non-rangers canonly acquire camo kits from rangers (that's you guys!)


3. If you don't like to craft, then don't craft (just like always)


4. If you insist on being "sociable" by applying the camo to others yourself, you can still do so (the effectiveness will even be improved!)


5. Rangers now have a new source of income (it doesn't matter if you need the money, this is a good thing in general)


6. The uniqueness of the ranger profession is preserved because only rangers can craft the kits

Conclusion: The only fundamental difference with this change is that non-rangers can apply camo kits that rangers make to themselves. Rangers have lost nothing as a result of this.

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I'll direct this to ComCypher and Eavik with the hope that this well articulated summary might finally get through:

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AragornSoS wrote:

And again, you are making an assumption that this will offer even 5% success to crafters, nevermind the 20% success you reference earlier. You have repeatedly stated that you don't use camo at all, and have only now started making kits for the first time ever. So where are you basing this info on? I'm a Master Ranger with bio clothes that I use when I'm using camo (and yes, I use it frequently on Dathomir for tips out and about to the Village and where Nightsisters be.). I DO use camo, a lot - more often when I know I'll be dealing with or near lots of NPCs and want at least some chance to slip by unnoticed. And it breaks, even with my Master Ranger mods and bio clothes, a lot. I would be exceptionally surprised if crafters, with no camo mods, even managed to see 5% success. You're assuming some amount of success, and happy to say "well, if they manage to make it by that 1 agro creature, that's one that it saved them from.".

The reality is, for those of us who actually play a Ranger and use all 4 trees (even with broken skills and issues and all, I still camp, trap, camo and track to enhance my gameplay), we realize that avoiding that 1 creature is going to be largely pointless. If you avoid 10 creatures, but number 11 breaks the camo and kills you before you get to your harvester, that's not success, that's failure. Doesn't matter if you avoided "some" stuff, you're still dead. The camo still failed. Did it delay your death by 15 or 20seconds? Maybe. Did it allow you to avoid agro and successfully complete your task (tending harvesters or whatever)? No. So that's failure my friend. The camo did nothing to protect you from the real issue (the CL damage multiplier issue), and in fact most likely ensured your demise when it broke. If you think that crafters are somehow going to be able to apply camo to themselves and even make it from the outpost to the village (hey, we've all seen those huge harvester and factory farms out there now on the plains) even one time without it breaking, you really haven't used it and don't know what you're talking about. I MIGHT be able to make a trip from the outpost to the village, on foot, and only have camo break once, MAYBE twice, on a very lucky day, if I take a lot of extra time going around things and still hope that the server doesn't decide that now is a good time to spawn a few Nightsisters on top of my head as I'm working around that grouping of spiders over there, and the flyers next to them. A crafter relying on nothing more than the camo pack they bought from you and applied themselves is going to be dead regardless of whether or not they use the camo - and it's even more likley that they'll be less careful thinking they have this useful buff, which is only going to cause it to break that much faster. How many crafters are going to be willing to walk 4000m or more out to a harvester grouping to ensure that the camo they bought and applied has SOME chance of not breaking (since it'll break LOT faster on a mount or a speeder or swoop).

I'm happy you'll get enjoyment out of having a ranger with this change, I am. I'm always happy for others when they find something to enjoy in the game. However, I might suggest that if the only thing you've found to date to do with a ranger is be a harvest machine which you find boring and pointless... you might also want to look at changing your template. There is no revamp even on the calendar, and at the moment about the ONLY thing we have is being that harvest machine (unless you're finding and making your own content, as many of us are). If you think harvesting for organic contracts is bad, wait until you have to gather enough of some of the named resouces to do factory runs of camo. I can't imagine how you find doing an odd hunting contract now and then mind numbingly boring, but the prospect of having to travel planet to planet and gather resources, in some cases from sources that don't offer much yield at all, is somehow exciting to you, is beyond me personally. I'd much rather hunt with my guild, help noobs level up, explore and have fun than have to work at gathering resources for a "product" whose worth even you are willing to admit MIGHT be at most 5% useful, if that.

I see your point, you think it's a good thing since we can generate money and sell "something" without having to take hunting contracts. You keep posting how it's good becuase it gives us something else to sell. Wow, I can sell a kit for 20k each (max price on the bazaar). In the time it would take me to get to a planet, gather enough specific named resources to make a handful of kits, if I was in it for the money, I could have run MANY more missions from terminals all paying 9-10k or so, or gotten a sweet 8K from the Rodian in the camps who only wants me to kill 8 varactyls, or simply gone nuts in space and run some duty missions then sold all the looted parts. Any one of these can net me FAR more money in that time than making and selling the kits.

You are still missing the point why most of us are up in arms, and it's not over the act of selling a silly camo kit.... it's deeper than that, and goes to a lack of communication from the Devs &neglect by the Devsand dismantling of the profession as a whole, bit by bit. The kit is a kit, it's an item. The ability to apply it IS the skill, and that has been given away now. The ability to make the kit is knowledge we pay dearly for throught the expenditure of skill points. All of that has now been gifted to the community at large for free.If you're an actual Ranger and not just a troll, you'll have read the Outdoorsman, Outdoorsman 2.0, and many of the other amazing ideas put together by Fred, Owen, Phen, Calc, Nemo, WildBill and others that are stickied at the top. How can you continue to hold the position that giving away the ability for personal concealment DOESN'T dramatically impact our ability to push for even better and broader stealth and recon type changes when we DO get a revamp? If everyone in the game can do something, do you REALLY think it'll be made to be powerful or profession defining? What happened when doc buffs and armorgot "too powerful" and unbalancing? Do you see how stims are LIMITED now (with 60 sec timers and, from what I've seen, a cap on what even the best can heal at somewhere around 1200 points, when we all have ~3000 HAM on the combat side of things...)? If you really don't see how allowing everyone in the game to use what has up until this point been a unique skill requiring from 88 to 140 SP invested to "master" the skill, I'm not sure there is any point in further posting or trying to educate you as to what concerns most of us. If all you see is the almighty credit and the opportunity to make a quick buck on some kits that are perhaps marginally effective, then more power to you and I wish you well.

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NOWHERE did I ever say that I have never used or crafted camo before. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth to base your argument off of. I have said repeatedly that this is the first time I have ever had a NEED to craft camo kits. I've used camo before, and found it useless and pointless. I had no need for it myself, and nobody ever wanted it from me. Now that people do seem to want this, I have a use for the camo kits again. It's up to the people buying the kits to determine the value and use of the kits. If there is a demand for them, they will buy them. If they decide they don't work at all, then they will stop buying them, and we can get right back where we were...camo kits that nobody wants or needs.

And enough with the "you're playing Ranger for all the wrong reasons!" BS. Seriously. I play Ranger, and I enjoy it. I'm not going to change my template because you don't approve of the way I choose to enjoy the game. Remember, I'm not the one throwing a little temper tantrum over this change. I'm actually enjoying the game and the profession. Maybe you need to change your template if you hate this so much.

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Eavik wrote:

NOWHERE did I ever say that I have never used or crafted camo before. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth to base your argument off of. I have said repeatedly that this is the first time I have ever had a NEED to craft camo kits. I've used camo before, and found it useless and pointless. I had no need for it myself, and nobody ever wanted it from me. Now that people do seem to want this, I have a use for the camo kits again. It's up to the people buying the kits to determine the value and use of the kits. If there is a demand for them, they will buy them. If they decide they don't work at all, then they will stop buying them, and we can get right back where we were...camo kits that nobody wants or needs.

And enough with the "you're playing Ranger for all the wrong reasons!" BS. Seriously. I play Ranger, and I enjoy it. I'm not going to change my template because you don't approve of the way I choose to enjoy the game. Remember, I'm not the one throwing a little temper tantrum over this change. I'm actually enjoying the game and the profession. Maybe you need to change your template if you hate this so much.

I'm actually considering starting a third account on my server so I can get a character with a little merchant skill, and open up a sporting goods shop. "Gasp! You mean you only care about the money." No. A long time ago when I first started grinding rifles and ranger and had all those extra, unused skill points laying around, I invested some into the business tree and opened a small hunting shop on Lok. I kept my vendor stocked with fishing poles, bait, shellfish resources, fish, stacks of resources, camps, traps, etc. I didn't really get any business or make any money, but it was a fun diversion managing and stocking my own shop. "Gasp! I don't approve! Change youre template! That's not what we're about!" Putting words in other peoples mouths. Who exactly are you quoting there? You repeat it so often, it would seem that this is something someone actually said, word for word.

Yes, I've read all the proposals, and no this doesn't limit our revamp in any way. We need to quit jumping to conclusions and assuming things we you know nothing about. There is nothing stopping these exact same camo kits from giving us stealth ability as well. Just build it into the Camouflage modifiers - for the person wearing the kit, not applying it. So if a crafter with 0 camo modifier running to his harvester wears a camo kit, it gives him some limited mask scent type abilities. A Master Ranger with a +100 camo modifier wears that exact same kit, and he gets an improved mask scent ability along with stealth.

"Nuh-uh! That's unpossible! We got nerfed!"

Again, who said this?

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Ok, we get it that you won't go away.

You said you didn't do it for the money. I'm seeing a lot of business terms in there, and it seems to me you are buying another account to open a business? You really don't care about the money?

Really?

Are you sure?

Again, who were you quoting?

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Eavik wrote:

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BioEngine wrote:

Oh, yeah, you definitely became a Ranger for the role-playing value, with that kind of comparison.

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Riiiiiight. Because yelling "Camo buffs 15k! Form line in front of me. 75k for line cut" has much, much more role-playing possibilities than selling your supplies to other people.

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When did I ever do that?

Quote me.

You are putting words in my mouth, aren't you?

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Eavik wrote:

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BioEngine wrote:

Oh, yeah, you definitely became a Ranger for the role-playing value, with that kind of comparison.

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Riiiiiight. Because yelling "Camo buffs 15k! Form line in front of me. 75k for line cut" has much, much more role-playing possibilities than selling your supplies to other people.

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You're a "Glass is half filled with pennies" kind of guy aren't you?

You don't even know what roleplaying is, from what you have shown here. You're not a Ranger. You, sir, are a profiteer.

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BioEngine wrote:

Ok, we get it that you won't go away.

You said you didn't do it for the money. I'm seeing a lot of business terms in there, and it seems to me you are buying another account to open a business? You really don't care about the money?

Really?

Are you sure?

Again, who were you quoting?

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Yes, My fishing rod vendor is going to have me rolling in the credits. You caught me. It's all been a big lie.

How thick-headed can one person be? Seriously, I'm starting to feel embarassed for you at this point.

And even if I was in it all for the money. I've been lying all along tocover up...something. I'm not sure why I would need to lie about that, but OK- what difference does that make to you? Why do you care how I choose to play the game. Just because I'm not marching in lockstep with the way you want to play the game makes me a mean, nasty troll? For real, get over yourself.

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BioEngine wrote:

You don't even know what roleplaying is, from what you have shown here. You're not a Ranger. You, sir, are a profiteer.

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Eavik wrote:

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth to base your argument off of.


Funny.. You're accusing others of putting words in your mouth, but yet you keep putting sarcastic and self made quotes into your post?

examples below, with your quotes:

Eavik wrote:

And enough with the "you're playing Ranger for all the wrong reasons!" BS.

I'm actually considering starting a third account on my server so I can get a character with a little merchant skill, and open up a sporting goods shop. "Gasp! You mean you only care about the money." No.

I didn't really get any business or make any money, but it was a fun diversion managing and stocking my own shop. "Gasp! I don't approve! Change youre template! That's not what we're about!"

A Master Ranger with a +100 camo modifier wears that exact same kit, and he gets an improved mask scent ability along with stealth.

A Master Ranger with a +100 camo modifier wears that exact same kit, and he gets an improved mask scent ability along with stealth.
"Nuh-uh! That's unpossible! We got nerfed!"

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Message Edited by frightwig on 05-27-2005 08:11 PM

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frightwig wrote:


It's almost as if you're creating arguments to argue against. Why add these made up quotes and accuse others of thinking this way? No one has said any of the quoted comments you wrote!

Eavik, I'll say this again.. this isn't meaningful discussion. It's trolling. You're entitled to your opinions - you're entitled to think you're right and everyone else is wrong.. But accusing others of whining, being crybabies and "throwing temper tantrums" is nothing more than flaming and trolling.

Message Edited by frightwig on 05-27-2005 08:11 PM

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So sorry for paraphrasing. In the future, I'll refrain from making stuff up.

"You're not a Ranger."

"The reality is, for those of us who actually play a Ranger "

"you might also want to look at changing your template."

Yeah...it's awful how I have to make stuff up.

I refuse to get behind an ignorant and uninformed "Ranger cause",so I take personal attacks and get talked down to as if I'm some kind of noob or fraud - and yet, I'm somehow the troll. Hilarious.

I am a Ranger, whether you like it or not. I am going to make my voice heard when it comes to something that is going to effect my profession. Keep swinging and talking down to me though, I can handle it.

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Eavik wrote:

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frightwig wrote:
Eavik..
It's obvious you disagree with many (I didn't say all, or even the majority)..

You should really tone down the sarcasm though. It's extremely thick.

No one's going to change your opinion, and others aren't going to change theirs. Overall, this thread has degenerated into bickering, rather than meaningful discussion.


One fact that can't be argued -- Camo was a ranger "ability", and something that was given to us as stated by Holocron and the Dev team for the purpose of making us unique in '03.

That ability has now been given to everyone. This is why many are upset.

You're just fanning the flames now, accusing others of whining.

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But we ARE still unique when it comes to camouflage. That's the point.

People still can't go around and conceal themselves without the help of a Ranger. Camouflage doesn't grow in trees, it comes from us. We just trade or sell it now instead of apply it.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me WHY it's better to apply the camo ourselves rather than letting the end user apply the product. Because this whole "uniqueness" thing just isn't doing it. The only thing application gives us is what I described above - following people around as they run menial errands, or spamming in starports...or just hoarding the kits to ourselves and never using them - like we had before.

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