Ranger Archive
Thread: we do NOT want carbines
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
Scout 4400, Scout 4000 marksman 0004, or Scout 0400 and a Novice combat profession?
The prereqs should change to Scout 0400 and Novice Comabt skill.
Just a minute you were saying something completely else. Yes, that would be a better solution for us, but it won't happen. It would be hard to code and hard for them to justify. If that was a choice that the devs offered, of course I'd go for it. But that won't be an option.
Barring this setup, with the flexible pre-reqs, the most balanced way to do it, for the benefit of all Rangers, is with Scout 4400.
At this point in the design phase it will be not be harder to code. Dont even give me that.
I work for a software company how did you think I get all this time to waste on the boards all day.
At this point in the design phase this is the perfect time to code this requirement in. Scout 0400 and Novice Comabt skill.
And yes I have moved past masrkman 0004 and scout 4400when I read the above ideal in the dev forum it made more sense.
Jaeryk wrote:
Maybe it's the way I'm looking at it, but I dont see how the melee ones will be suffering? Currently they get +10 M/R defense from MRanger with no M/R combat mods and have 4 pts left over.
If it stays xx4x marksman 4xxxx scout then they will get an additional M/R defense, combat mods to use with a ranged weapon (sure, of small use, but better than none for times they'd use one) and have 9pts left over. Not enough for novice medic ? they already dont have enough for novice medic. Those 9 pts will get 2 trees and 1 skill box of FS skills to further enhance the melee side if they so choose.
Let me ask you something. If every template except yours was given 10x their current power and you were made 2x as power as you are now, would you be upset? I mean, like with the melee Rangers, technically, they're not taking anything away and you're getting a little something. You can still have your template, like they can have theirs. But it's all about RELATIVE power. A melee Ranger with a marksman pre-req will be relatively less powerful than a ranged combat counterpart. That's the point. If you were made 2x as powerful but everyone else was made 10x, you'd be peaved because even though you gained power, you lost relative power compared to those who used to be your equals.
Here's a simple version. Right now Ranger + elite ranged combat profess is the exact same power as an elite melee profession. Put them in a fight and the best fighter will win. After the change, the Ranged Ranger will mop the floor with the melee guy, since the melee guy can't even get novice medic, while the ranged guy has CM 4000.How do you not see that as an imbalanced change?
BHs have ALWAYS had a marksman pre-req though. They never had to option. That's not the case here. There are already people who are Ranged Rangers, and this change negatively affects them. If you can't see the difference, then there's no point in even trying to engage in a logical discussion. Oh, and a LOT of melee bounty hunters were very upset by the changes in the CU and since then, actually.
Maxanto wrote:
If rangers are so bent out of shape about a lack of melee... why don't the BH complain about this at all? They are just like us, one branch scout one marksmen. I never remember hearing the BH whine as much as we are about not having access to melee.
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 09-23-2005 12:03 PM
Now put both types of ranger up against a Bounty Hunter\Combat Elite\CM4000 or any other Combat Elite Double Master with CM4000 and the Ranger will lose every single time.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Jaeryk wrote:
Maybe it's the way I'm looking at it, but I dont see how the melee ones will be suffering? Currently they get +10 M/R defense from MRanger with no M/R combat mods and have 4 pts left over.
If it stays xx4x marksman 4xxxx scout then they will get an additional M/R defense, combat mods to use with a ranged weapon (sure, of small use, but better than none for times they'd use one) and have 9pts left over. Not enough for novice medic ? they already dont have enough for novice medic. Those 9 pts will get 2 trees and 1 skill box of FS skills to further enhance the melee side if they so choose.
Let me ask you something. If every template except yours was given 10x their current power and you were made 2x as power as you are now, would you be upset? I mean, like with the melee Rangers, technically, they're not taking anything away and you're getting a little something. You can still have your template, like they can have theirs. But it's all about RELATIVE power. A melee Ranger with a marksman pre-req will be relatively less powerful than a ranged combat counterpart. That's the point. If you were made 2x as powerful but everyone else was made 10x, you'd be peaved because even though you gained power, you lost relative power compared to those who used to be your equals.
Here's a simple version. Right now Ranger + elite ranged combat profess is the exact same power as an elite melee profession. Put them in a fight and the best fighter will win. After the change, the Ranged Ranger will mop the floor with the melee guy, since the melee guy can't even get novice medic, while the ranged guy has CM 4000.How do you not see that as an imbalanced change?
Not at all. Rangers are not a hybrid profession. That's like saying that a Rifleman/Swordsman can't take CM 4000. Those are the choices that double elite professions have to take. Each template will have benefits and hinderances.
Rolfie wrote:
Now put both types of ranger up against a Bounty Hunter\Combat Elite\CM4000 or any other Combat Elite Double Master with CM4000 and the Ranger will lose every single time.
Don't you see a problem with that?
If you do not have a high degree of healing in PvP you are dead meat and you know it.
What I want is a Master Ranger to be competitve with every opther class.
Right now Scout 0400 and a Novice Elite fits that bill.
Doesn't even have to be a combat profession really does it. Just Scout 0400 and Elite Novice. That way any master Ranger in game right now immideately on relase on the revamp they lose nothing.
But more than anything I am concerned for the Master Master Ranger, Master Combat guy. Thats the person needing the healing skills. Not the master Ranger who has picked up another Hybrid profession.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-23-2005 09:15 AM
Rolfie wrote:
If you do not have a high degree of healing in PvP you are dead meat and you know it.
What I want is a Master Ranger to be competitve with every opther class.
Right now Scout 0400 and a Novice Elite fits that bill.
I think it should always have been equal to any other ELITE profession.
Jaeryk wrote:
I dont really see it as an imbalanced change. Ranger should have always been equal to any other hybrid profession.
One more example of what Scout 4400 does to every single Master Ranger.
Right now I as a master Ranger have a devil of a time surviving any NPC combat at the same or higher CL.
Why becasue with 4 skill points left over I have no medic ability and rely on heals from others to stay alive.
With Scout 4400 as a prereq not much changes I now have a low level bacta toss in medic and novice bacta shot. I get Medic 0200.
So if I go to the DWB, make a vette run, go to the Mydrill cavern, visit the Avatar platfrom I am in the same boat unable to heal myself as fast as any other player.
I am still a liability to the group as people must continue to watch out for me.
Now if the prereq stays marksman 0004 or 0040 I can hit CM4000 as a carbineer this is bad but not as bad as Scout 4400.
But if the prereq is Scout 0400 and Novice Combat then every Master Ranger\Swordsman\Fencer\TKM\Riflemen\Carbineer\Pistoller can also hit CM4000 or spend the skill points as they see fit.
Phenix I want all Master Ranger\Master Combat to have parity with any other Master Hybrid\Master Combat professions.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Master Carbineer + Master Ranger
Exploration 4 + Trapping 4: 38 skillpoints left
Exploration 4 + Carbines 4: 52 skillpoints left
Ranged Support 4 + Trapping: 52 skillpoints left
I'd submit that Exploration 4 + Carbines 4 gives much more options to the above template than any of the others. It stacks with BHs and you get something useful (TN) instead of Trapping which is useless for the new Ranger.
Master Bounty Hunter + Ranger:
Exploration 4 + Trapping 4: 52 skillpoints left
Exploration 4 + Carbines 4: 52 skillpoints left
Ranged Support 4 + Trapping: 52 skillpoints left
As you can see, by adding a restriction in the ranged profession, Ranged profesions gain only 14 skillpoints, while Melee professions lose 29. Bounty Huner is completely unaffected by any of these templates. So ask yourself, if you are looking at what is best for ALL Rangers, and not just yourself, is that really a fair trade?
Actually, BHs are affected. The Marksman Carbine mods stack with BH general ranged mods and give an edge to Carbine using Ranger/BHs. Now, as far as looking what is best for ALL rangers is concerned. Do you want to gimp the Rangers in order to have enable an already gimped Ranger/Melee template? As I mentioned before, though you keep ignoring it, Ranger will get RANGED mods sprinkled in the Ranger skill set NOT MELEE. So, by taking a melee profession along with Rangeryou are already hurting yourself by quite a bit regardless of the skill point expenditure.
The devs vision of Ranger is a Ranged Combat Hybrid template. I think they have chosen the best Scout pre-req. for the martial Ranger. The old Ranger is Scout now. So, if someone wants a creature centric melee profession they can master Scout and melee profession of their choice. The only difference will be not having the "Ranger" title.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
If you do not have a high degree of healing in PvP you are dead meat and you know it.
What I want is a Master Ranger to be competitve with every opther class.
Right now Scout 0400 and a Novice Elite fits that bill.
I've beaten 1 Jedi in friendly PvP with just Master Ranger/MBH (admittedly, he wasn't full template) and I killed one Jedi outright on a Bounty mission with the same template. Ranger stealth could easily make up for the lack of CM 4000, and even with my scout 4400, you could get medic 0040 and then some.
As I said, Scout 0400 + nov elite DOES make the most sense...but it won't happen.
It won't happen because you are being selfish. Your template does not fall with Master Ranger, master Combat profession. That is the only reason in your eyes it won't happen.
Coding this requirement is as easy as coding in Scout 4400 or scout 4000 and Marksman 0040. Couple if statements and bingo Scout 0400 and Novice Combat is prereq.
Then all Master Rangers and Master CombatRangerwill be theequalof any other Hybrid or Double Mastered Elite Profession
Not unless they make the same change for all the other HYBRID
Phenix1050 wrote:
As I said, Scout 0400 + nov elite DOES make the most sense...but it won't happen.
classes. Which is unlikely to happen anytime soon. But maybe this will get'em thinking about it 
Rolfie wrote:
With Scout 4400 as a prereq not much changes I now have a low level bacta toss in medic and novice bacta shot. I get Medic 0200.
you'd math seems a little fudged.
Master Ranger + combat profession wth scout 4400 has 38 skillpoints left over. novice medic costs 15. that's 23 skillpoints left. it takes 14 points to get medic 0040. That's9 points left. It takes9 points to get medic 0300. So you can pick up Medic 0340 with the points left over. or you can pick up medic 0400 (costs 29 skilpoints) and novice CM and medic 0010if you're a ranged profession.
now if you have BH, you have 52 skillpoints left over. novice medic costs 15, so you have 37 left. - 14 for medic 0400. now you're at 23. - 6 for CM. now you're at 17. 14 points for CM 4000.