Ranger Archive
Thread: we do NOT want carbines
Phenix1050 wrote:
Master Rifleman/Ranger with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs: 38 skillpoints left.
Master Rifleman/Ranger with Exploration/Trapping pre-reqs: 38 skillpoints left.
Master Ranger/Bounty Hunter with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs:52 skillpoints left
Master Ranger/Bounty Hunter with Exploration/Trapping pre-reqs: 52 skillpoints left
Master Ranger/Pikeman with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs: 9 skillpoints left
Master Ranger/Pikeman with Exploration/Trapping pre-reqs: 38 skillpoints left
So will exactly the same (or more) skillpoints available to us...how would be more competitive?
You missed a few things:
Master Carbineer/Ranger with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs:52 skillpoints left.
And
are not equal. The MBH/Ranger combo with Carbine/Exploration has the sameskill points,but because BHs can use carbines, BH/Ranger combos get extra Carbine accuracy and speed mods from theMarksman line anddo not need any extra skill points toget pre-reqs. for extra Carbine skills from Carbineer.
So, in reality you are giving away the advantage you might have in skill points for BH and Carbine combinations in the Marksman tree. The Rifleman and Pistol combinations cost the same either way.
Now, given that Rangers are defined as a "Ranged" combat profession, and the fact that you will get Ranged bonuses (speed, accuracy defense etc.), and not Melee do you really want to gimp your profession for the MAJORITY of folks that will take the Ranged route for the sake of few that might prefer melee options? Do not forget that the BHs were in the same boat. After CU the BH/Melee template went away for all practical purposes.
Message Edited by Tanks on 09-23-2005 08:14 AM
Ideally what I would like to see is the ideal floated were we take one line of scout.
Again for me thats Trapping 4, then require the Ranger toon to have a Novice combat skill at minimum to be certed as a Ranger.
That is the only other option I see as keeping Ranger the eqaul of the other Hybrid Professions.
So NO I do not agree with your assumptions on this I agree with the Dev design decision more.
So do not include a 2nd hydrid profession in the Ranger skillset.
What I would prefer is Master Ranger\ Master Combat Elite profession the Equal of Master Bounty Hunter\Master Combat or Master Commando\Master Combat.
That is my sole concern The ranger profession as a whole what makes us the equal to the other Hybrids. Now if the Dev team makes it so Ranger and a Novice Elite combat is the requirement then ALL master Rangers win.
If thats not going to happen then YES I want to cut my loses and follow the Devs desgin to a degree. Then and only then make Marksman 0004 the prereq.
That way yes a Melee Ranger is a second class profesion the present design decision. BUT the all ranged Rangers are competitive with any other pure hybrid class.
So Ideally the prereq is then Trapping 4 and a novice Combat profession. That way Ranger skills do not overpower any other profession dabbling in the Ranger skillset. That also allows a Ranger to get CM4000 and stay competive in PvP and well as hunt like no tomorrow.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-23-2005 08:08 AM
Rolfie wrote:
That way yes a Melee Ranger is a second class profesion the present design decision. BUT the all ranged Rangers are competitive with any other pure hybrid class.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Actually, that's exactly what this is about. Right now, we're all Rangers. Melee and ranged templates alike. Would you agree that we should havebe a melee hybrid? No, because it would screw up what you think of as Ranger. We're all Rangers, this revamp should be fair to all of us.
Master Rifleman/Ranger with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs: 38 skillpoints left.
Master Rifleman/Ranger with Exploration/Trapping pre-reqs: 38 skillpoints left.
Master Ranger/Bounty Hunter with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs:52 skillpoints left
Master Ranger/Bounty Hunter with Exploration/Trapping pre-reqs: 52 skillpoints left
Master Ranger/Pikeman with Carbine/Exploration pre-reqs: 9 skillpoints left
Master Ranger/Pikeman with Exploration/Trapping pre-reqs: 38 skillpoints left
So will exactly the same (or more) skillpoints available to us...how would be more competitive?
With Prereqs at Scout 4000 marksman000;
Every Ranged ranger has CM4000 and is comptetivie with any Bounty Hunter,Commando, or Squad Leader Hydrid.
Melee fold get screwed like this thye can only achieve Medic 0200.
With prereqs as Scout 4400
Everyone get screwed the same and can only achieve Novice combat medic we are then all the same second class profession in game.
Make the prereqs Scout 0400 and a NoviceElite profession we are then are equal once more and we all achieve CM4000.
That is why I object to Scout 4400 or any other pure scout prereqs you gimp Ranger from the start again.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
That way yes a Melee Ranger is a second class profesion the present design decision. BUT the all ranged Rangers are competitive with any other pure hybrid class.
why should the melee Rangers suffer for the Ranged Rangers' sake?
Right now, we are NOT a hybrid profession. We should be equal to any ELITE profession. Look at doctor-- no combat XP there, but they have generic mods. Just explain to me this:
if you approve of rangers being equal with othey hybrids in terms of power, would you also agree to make us a melee hybrid? We'd have just as many points left over if we were a melee hybrid, and we'd have just as much ability to pick up complimentary melee skills. We'd have just as much power as all the other hybrids, like you want us to, but we'd be melee- based.Sure, the Ranged templates would suffer, but all the melee rangers would be competitive with any other pure hybrid class. Would you agree to that.?
I'm gonna guess no, because you want to play ranged. Right now your justification seems to be little more than selfishness.
We are not a hybrid in name only. As Ranger is right now we cannot collect XP without killing our quarry can we?
We were not part of the CU out of the scope remember. We were not adjusted. Just like the battle armor discussion Elite versus Hybrid these names hold no water anymore just names so stop clinging to them.
Don't give me that selfishness BULL you want to misdirect this discussion go ahead but don't start to think you know what I want.
What I want is RANGERS to be the equal of any other combat class in this game, plain and simple enough for you?
To do that I would make the prereqs Scout 0400 to cut down on dabblers and overpowering thier tempaltes with Rangers skills.
I would then make the last requirement be, you hold a novice combat skill.
Those two requirements would meet the design documents goals for Rangers being stealthly special ops people. Then a player could play as a Melee Ranger or a Ranged Ranger.
Barring that if the design team wants to create a new class that is competivie with the other profession then if marksman 0004 is the devs accepted anwser so be it.
BUT don't even presume that I am being selfish, I am open to anything that enhances all Rangers.
Scout 4400 just screws the master Ranger in general compared to the other Elite and Hybnrid professions.
Low and behold who benifits from a Scout 4400 prereqthe Bounty Hunter Dabbler.
Now Phenix are you a Master Bounty Hunter, carbine, ranger dabbler?
Now the shoe is on the other foot I want to know your basis for scout 4400?
What I want to see is Scout 0400, and a NoviceElite profession prereqso all master Rangers benefit.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-23-2005 08:40 AM
okay, I'm going to do some more skillpoint cost analysis. I show each of the three main ideas and show how many skillpoints each template would have left. The 4 templates I'll do are Master Ranged (generic), Master Carbineer, Master melee (generic), Master Bounty Hunter.
Master Ranged (generic)+ Master Ranger:
Exploration 4 + Trapping 4: 38 skillpoints left
Exploration 4 + Carbines 4: 38 skillpoints left
Ranged Support 4+ Exploration 4: 52 skillpoints left
Master Carbineer + Master Ranger
Exploration 4 + Trapping 4: 38 skillpoints left
Exploration 4 + Carbines 4: 52 skillpoints left
Ranged Support 4 + Trapping: 52 skillpoints left
Master Melee (generic) + Master Ranger
Exploration 4 + Trapping 4: 38 skillpoints left
Exploration 4 + Carbines 4: 9 skillpoints left
Ranged Support 4 + Trapping 4: 9 skillpoints left
Master Bounty Hunter + Ranger:
Exploration 4 + Trapping 4: 52 skillpoints left
Exploration 4 + Carbines 4: 52 skillpoints left
Ranged Support 4 + Trapping: 52 skillpoints left
As you can see, by adding a restriction in the ranged profession, Ranged profesions gain only 14 skillpoints, while Melee professions lose 29. Bounty Huner is completely unaffected by any of these templates. So ask yourself, if you are looking at what is best for ALL Rangers, and not just yourself, is that really a fair trade?
What is a better design decision Phenix.
Scout 4400, Scout 4000 marksman 0004, or Scout 0400 and a Novice combat profession?
All your scout 4400 does is prevent the Master Ranger from having as many free skill points as say a master Bounty Hunter \ Master Swords does.
Rolfie wrote:
What I want is RANGERS to be the equal of any other combat class in this game. plain and simple enough for you.
Now Phenix are you a master Bounty Hunter, carbine, ranger dabbler?
Now the shoe is on the other foot I want to know your basis for scout 4400?
You say that you want Rangers to be equal, but it is you who is advocating leaving Rangers who are melee with only 9 skillpoints. How can you say you represent all Rangers and want them all to be equal when you're advocating destroying any chance of a viable melee Ranger template?
Nope, I'm Master Ranger, Master Bounty Hunter w/ some FS skills. I'll likely dabble in carbines if that's our pre-req. I've already said that making it a ranged template would benefit me. If the shoe is "on the other foot", then let me explain. My basis for scout 4400 is because it is what best for ALL Rangers, not what's best for ME. I'm able to empathise with people who combine melee and Ranger, and I see them getting made less feasible. And even though I would grow in power, I'm not willing to accept that as a trade for the viability of other peoples' templates. That's my basis.
Rolfie wrote:
Scout 4400, Scout 4000 marksman 0004, or Scout 0400 and a Novice combat profession?
The prereqs should change to Scout 0400 and Novice Comabt skill.
Just a minute you were saying something completely else. Yes, that would be a better solution for us, but it won't happen. It would be hard to code and hard for them to justify. If that was a choice that the devs offered, of course I'd go for it. But that won't be an option.
Barring this setup, with the flexible pre-reqs, the most balanced way to do it, for the benefit of all Rangers, is with Scout 4400.
One last time.
If Ranger does not have the same skill points left after a any other Elite Profession rangers are screwed in PvP.
Scout 0400 and novice Combat will fit the bill.
Its time to move beyond Scout 4400.
Phenix1050 wrote:
why should the melee Rangers suffer for the Ranged Rangers' sake?
Right now, we are NOT a hybrid profession. We should be equal to any ELITE profession. Look at doctor-- no combat XP there, but they have generic mods. Just explain to me this:
if you approve of rangers being equal with othey hybrids in terms of power, would you also agree to make us a melee hybrid? We'd have just as many points left over if we were a melee hybrid, and we'd have just as much ability to pick up complimentary melee skills. We'd have just as much power as all the other hybrids, like you want us to, but we'd be melee- based.Sure, the Ranged templates would suffer, but all the melee rangers would be competitive with any other pure hybrid class. Would you agree to that.?
I'm gonna guess no, because you want to play ranged. Right now your justification seems to be little more than selfishness.
Maybe it's the way I'm looking at it, but I dont see how the melee ones will be suffering? Currently they get +10 M/R defense from MRanger with no M/R combat mods and have 4 pts left over.
If it stays xx4x marksman 4xxxx scout then they will get an additional M/R defense, combat mods to use with a ranged weapon (sure, of small use, but better than none for times they'd use one) and have 9pts left over. Not enough for novice medic ? they already dont have enough for novice medic. Those 9 pts will get 2 trees and 1 skill box of FS skills to further enhance the melee side if they so choose.
No post he's made calls for that cheap shot
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
What I want is RANGERS to be the equal of any other combat class in this game. plain and simple enough for you.
Now Phenix are you a master Bounty Hunter, carbine, ranger dabbler?
Now the shoe is on the other foot I want to know your basis for scout 4400?
You say that you want Rangers to be equal, but it is you who is advocating leaving Rangers who are melee with only 9 skillpoints. How can you say you represent all Rangers and want them all to be equal when you're advocating destroying any chance of a viable melee Ranger template?
Nope, I'm Master Ranger, Master Bounty Hunter w/ some FS skills. I'll likely dabble in carbines if that's our pre-req. I've already said that making it a ranged template would benefit me. If the shoe is "on the other foot", then let me explain. My basis for scout 4400 is because it is what best for ALL Rangers, not what's best for ME. I'm able to empathise with people who combine melee and Ranger, and I see them getting made less feasible. And even though I would grow in power, I'm not willing to accept that as a trade for the viability of other peoples' templates. That's my basis.
We wont be any different than smuggler, commandoor bounty hunter. Sorry melee guys, no offense, but I would say that 99% of the combat in the story is ranged. 99.9% of the war is ranged...
Unless you want to count in those pesky jedi.
If rangers are so bent out of shape about a lack of melee... why don't the BH complain about this at all? They are just like us, one branch scout one marksmen. I never remember hearing the BH whine as much as we are about not having access to melee.