Ranger Archive

*Shake Head*

phenix I think the only way to do it would be to have ranger somewhat creature centric, but have those abilities indirectly make a ranger very dangerous in his element. stuff like walking, not running cover.

The basic idea is for ranger to be a large part of a "light infantry" build. stuff like higher walking speed, no ranged weapon encumberance (small amounts in a tree with a big bonus at master) Another idea is action regen bonuses, and an improved version of burstrun that not only last longer but is togglable and slowly drains action/mind and can be preformed even while dizzy. command detonated traps that can injure any opponent.

stuff like this won't let a ranger stand toe to toe with a MLS jedi, but it will allow a ranger to hit and fade with great effectivness.

just remeber the largest land empire in the world was won with light calvary/infantry. (the mongols)

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Cpl_Fisher wrote:

phenix I think the only way to do it would be to have ranger somewhat creature centric, but have those abilities indirectly make a ranger very dangerous in his element. stuff like walking, not running cover.

The basic idea is for ranger to be a large part of a "light infantry" build. stuff like higher walking speed, no ranged weapon encumberance (small amounts in a tree with a big bonus at master) Another idea is action regen bonuses, and an improved version of burstrun that not only last longer but is togglable and slowly drains action/mind and can be preformed even while dizzy. command detonated traps that can injure any opponent.

stuff like this won't let a ranger stand toe to toe with a MLS jedi, but it will allow a ranger to hit and fade with great effectivness.

just remeber the largest land empire in the world was won with light calvary/infantry. (the mongols)

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oh that would be sooooo sweet! i still have this belief that Ranger should mesh most with Rifleman, but that's just me i suppose.

maybe a melee strike similer to snipershot?

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Cpl_Fisher wrote:
maybe a melee strike similer to snipershot?

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maybe. I like the idea of Ranger-specifc weaponry, especially now that weapons are level and profession-based. What would be REALLY cool, I thinks, is now that we know it's possible to give weapons a bonus to critical hit potential, is if Ranger had that as an innate ability either with Ranged or melee weapons. That would be cool. Knowing anatomy as well as we do, we're more likely to know where to hit a creature-- humanoid or otherwise. So unlike a specific special which gives a chance at critical strike, an innate talent for it.

There are so many non-creature-centric profession, why do you want Ranger to be one of them? I dont understand.

I want to be Ranger and want to be different from combat elites. Now combination of two elite combats is BETTER than Ranger in hunting (i mean killing animals not harvesting them). This is ridiculous and must be changed. Trapping NPCs, PvPare just not important since you can choose other profession, combine it with scout and feel you Ranger-like with more defences and more firepower.

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Rasst wrote:

There are so many non-creature-centric profession, why do you want Ranger to be one of them? I dont understand. Because specialization breeds imbalance, as we can see here. There is no way to make us UBER against creatures without imbalancing the PvE game. The only way to make Ranger better against creatures is to up creature damage for Ranger, and then we'll just be a FOTM for Jedi alts, and we'll get nerved.

I want to be Ranger and want to be different from combat elites. Now combination of two elite combats is BETTER than Ranger in hunting (i mean killing animals not harvesting them). This is ridiculous and must be changed. Trapping NPCs, PvPare just not important since you can choose other profession, combine it with scout and feel you Ranger-like with more defences and more firepower.

Or...we can get those skills and you can choose not to use them. Here's the very simple reason why people who have the idea of us being creature-only need to widen their scope. The idea of being viable in PvP and PvNPC in no way hinders your ability to function in PvE. However, your idea takes away from my idea of what Ranger should be. So why not be wider-range?It doesn't force you to do those things.

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Phenix1050 wrote:

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Rasst wrote:

There are so many non-creature-centric profession, why do you want Ranger to be one of them? I dont understand. Because specialization breeds imbalance, as we can see here. There is no way to make us UBER against creatures without imbalancing the PvE game. The only way to make Ranger better against creatures is to up creature damage for Ranger, and then we'll just be a FOTM for Jedi alts, and we'll get nerved.

I want to be Ranger and want to be different from combat elites. Now combination of two elite combats is BETTER than Ranger in hunting (i mean killing animals not harvesting them). This is ridiculous and must be changed. Trapping NPCs, PvPare just not important since you can choose other profession, combine it with scout and feel you Ranger-like with more defences and more firepower.

Or...we can get those skills and you can choose not to use them. Here's the very simple reason why people who have the idea of us being creature-only need to widen their scope. The idea of being viable in PvP and PvNPC in no way hinders your ability to function in PvE. However, your idea takes away from my idea of what Ranger should be. So why not be wider-range?It doesn't force you to do those things.

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You have a very clear choice: want to hunt jedis? Go BH. Want to play tank? Go melee. Wand highest damage? Go ranged. Asking PvP, PvNPCang GCW for Ranger is like asking Jedi hunting for Enterteiner. There can be some specific ranger missions but not the whole stuff.

I am NOT a Ranger, although I tried it briefly in the CU Respec phase and might adopt it again.

As a non-ranger, I expected that the class would be one that reflected the ability to move easily and effectively in the wild. As a hunter they would be unparalleled, in the GCW they would be the logical choice for all scouting activities. Forgive me if my comments include things that are already part of the class in effect, I am trying to suggest how I see things ought to work

To my mind this ought to mean:
* Rangers receive substantial ranged and melee defense bonuses that are geared to their not wearing armor (its bulky and slows you down, causes noise etc) with the highest bonuses at Master. These compensate for the lack of armor but not enough to make them as effective as a TKM - and these bonuses do not stack with those of TKM so what we don't produce the possibility of the ubertank.
* Master Rangers receive a +10 Range bonus
* Rangers gain innate stealthing abilities - not invisibility of coures, but camoflage and concealment that doesn't require a kit. Kits are for use on others. This means there is a chance based on skill that the ranger will not appear on PC radar and will not be seen by NPCs. /Maskscent takes care of concealment from creatures already. These skills are negated if the Ranger wears armor of any sort.
* In the GCW, Rangers become the ghost you seldom see, able to move in, observe and report, and then move out. If they break cover or are caught, they are not as capable of surviving in the resulting firefight based on their ranger skills. They have the defenses I mentioned above, but those are in compensation for not wearing any armor.
* Rangers receive a special light assault weapon of their own, that has no movement penalty. Using it, the Ranger can execute some weapon-specific specials that are primarily defensive in nature, intended to help the ranger "Get out of Dodge".
* Perhaps consider changing traps to be static drops that take effect when a PC/NPC/Creature runs over them rather than being thrown like grenades. I can see this causing additional lag though, so its less likely but it seems more realistic as an approach to traps, and would require more time to be used given that you need to lure the prey onto them etc.
* Change the tracking to simply show the names of the mobs on the overhead map when activated. It should still use the same animation and take the same time, but show what you can see on the map directly based on the Ranger's abilities. This would make it much more useful for leading people to a target, the current system seemed very cumbersome to me.

In short I think the Ranger ought to fulfill the "first in" role of a military Ranger, and the hardy/self-sufficient mountainman role of the wild-west style ranger in one. I think they should be tough in and of themselves, but not a strong combatant inherently. Mixed with Rifle or Carbine they should be a military scout/biggame hunter, with a pistol they should be the town sherrif. They should move faster cross country, and need less support in the wild than any other profession but should not integrate well with other combat professions so the class it not the next FOTM either. I can see BHs being tempted to mix BH with this sort of class, but that would (hopefully) be mitigated by the complete lack of offensive bonuses other than the range bonus I suggested, and the fact that you can't use armor.

Anyways, just my 2credits...

Message Edited by Sneev on 08-09-2005 10:12 AM

wow, the only thing i don't like above is your tracking idea. some other people have much better ideas for tracking.

but i really really like ALL your aother ideas!

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Rasst wrote:

You have a very clear choice: want to hunt jedis? Go BH. Want to play tank? Go melee. Wand highest damage? Go ranged. Asking PvP, PvNPCang GCW for Ranger is like asking Jedi hunting for Enterteiner. There can be some specific ranger missions but not the whole stuff.

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Really? So you're in favor of "If you want to hunt creatrues, you have to go Ranger" then? There is not a single other profession in the entire game who's combat-oriented skills (and yes, camo, trapping and tracking are combat-oriented skills) are in any way capped, limited, or prohibited from use against 2/3 of the "things" you may end up fighting in the game. I'll buy this particular argument just as soon as Rangers become the sole profession in the game that can kill and harvest ANY pearls out of a krayt... and we all know THAT isn't likely to ever happen. Your comparison doesn't even make sense to me. BH v Jedi is a very specific activity in the game related solely to 2 professions. Nobody here is asking to hunt jedi (the "job" of a BH), we are asking for an actual role in the GCW, just like every OTHER combat and combat-support profession currently in the game. And for that to happen, Ranger skills can NOT be gimped and prohibited from functioning in 2/3 of the game.

IF (and that's a HUGE "if") Ranger actually had exceptionally better skills against creatrues compared to any other combat class in the game, there MIGHT be some merit to your point. However... when a double elite combat mastery can kill just about ANYTHING (Creature, NPC, PC) in the game faster than a Ranger can kill a creature, it sort of loses any validity it might have had as an arguement. And making Ranger THAT much better vs Creatures than any other class in the game would be horribly unbalancing to the PvE side of things. It would be much better to simply NOT gate Ranger skills from being used in NPC and Player fights, and we'd all be fairly happy. Probably our single biggest "offensive" capabitily is traps - and since the states for those have already been handed out to many of the other professions in the game, in NO way can you consider allowing them to work against NPCs and Players to somehow now be game breaking or something that could be exploited. If anything, our traps should be brought up to par with how the specials work - we should be able to use them faster, have them do damage when they hit plus apply a state, we should be able to apply pretty much every state there is (for the SP invested - used to be we were the ONLY ones who could apply some of those states), and we SHOULD be the best at doing it for the SP we invest.

"Nuker" power, good tanking, hunting jedi... what does that have to do providng a role for Ranger in PvP, PvNPC or GCW, and allowing Ranger skills to be used in PvP, PvNPC, and the GCW? Those are things that are profession "roles" in combat... and they apply ACROSS EVERYTHING YOU MENTION. BH hunt jedi - but are not excluded from the GCW for doing so. Melee professions are generally better tanks, and that doesn't exclude them from tanking against any MOB in the game. I'm a rifleman - that means I'm a nuker and typcially lay out the highest damage of anyone in my group - and here's the important part... it doesn't MATTER if we're fighting creatures, NPCs or other players. The rifleman side of me is able to be a nuker no matter what. Ranger should be no different than any other elite combat related profession. We need to have a defined role in the GCW, we need our skills to actually function in the game, we need general melee and ranged defenses and accuracy and speed mods (similar to what you see in profs like SL and BH). Nobody is asking to take over the role of another profession, in fact most of us still probably tend to favor Ranger as more of a tactical combat specialist who is using stealth and knowledge to offset that fact that we don't have "uber nuking power". I'm not gonna kill the other guy 'cause I'm necessarily stronger (even tho I might be) - I'm gonna kill him 'cause I'm smarter, and used my brain and skills instead of simply charging pell mell into combat after popping my food and spice buffs.

I've posted several times in support of the concept of risk vs reward and having to deal with choices you make in the game, here and elsewhere. Right now, Ranger is all "risk" (sp investment) with very little in the way of "reward" (viable mods / skills / ability to function in the game world as a "Ranger") outside of what you make up for yourself if, like so many of us, you're more into the RP aspects of this than many who play. I'm all for the choices you make opening some paths to you, and closing others. However, there is a very large difference in my mind between choosing a non-combat (crafter) profession vs a combat / combat-support profession as your path (which is a choice we all make when we decide what skills we want our toons to have) versus having the game artifically and arbitrarily limit the skills of one combat profession (Ranger)from functioning in just about 2/3 of the game. Argueing that we are "creature hunters" and should only be able to do stuff and have mods and be successful versus creature only works as an arguement if everyone is willing to accept the logical follow-on to that, which is "and every OTHER combat profession is now prohibited from hunting anything but NPCs and participating in PvP". This game isn't really built with that kind of structure in mind at the moment - most things are either combat or non-combat, and I would wager that SOE is not likely to redesign everything from the ground up just to put Rangers in ou very own special little niche where we are the only people in game who can do a blessed thing with creatures, and we excel mightily at it. Not going to happen IMHO.