Ranger Archive
Thread: Pub 20 = No Ranger Love
I'm just curious, but where on this forum have you read anything that indicates we think the devs are doing a good job with ranger?
-Takanudo (...sugercoat is not an antonym for whine)
The dev game is very weird, Calc knows exactly what he is talking about as me him and later JB were together in there for a long time. Im sure JB will be the first to stand up and explain how often the devs actually talk/communicate sometimes. /que JB
The devs dont like a lot of things and the way you post impacts how much they listen a lot. They wont ignore a bad issue, sometimes they will even respond, but Tiggs and THdefinatly wont be as enthusiastic about putting the effort into compilling and communicating an issue with the devs if we are moaning and generally going nuts about it.
Most of us have been guilty of just loosing it for a bit, im often very sarcastic in my posts just out of pure frustration, but it acomplishes nothing. Best i can say is no matter what happens, keep just posting and being as passionate about making ranger great as you always have. Dont let nerfs or negative patches get you down, or if they do just keep it seperate from your enthusiasm to make ranger a better profession. Post unarguable points and make them easy to read by devs, desirable to forward and most of all give your thoughts on what should happen, thats what the ranger boards are about. We have fun, we are extremely creative and we stand back up and keep going now matter how many times we get kicked down.
Now lets get back to business. I heard calc tried to kiss me earlier!
SpecForceRanger wrote:
Whining pisses off the DEVs? GOOD.
Not for a person wanting Dev Love.
If my customer told me I was doing a crappy job, I'd be pissed too. Then I'd have to figure out if they were right or not. Nobody likes to be told they aren'tdoing a good job but everyone needs to be told when that is the case so they can be given the chance to correct it.If all you ever do is sugar coat your feedback to them, they are put into a VERY false sense of security andaccomplishment.
Who sugar coats the feedback? I never did, but I never ranted to them either. Constructive, well thought out arguemnts are notalways sugar coated.
So, SOE acknowledging there is a problem with Ranger Profession is Step #1. I have not seen this occur yet.
Communicating the problem is step 2. I have not seen this occur yet.
Devloping a plan to fix the problem and communicating that to the customer baseis step 3. I have not seen this occur yet.
Execution of the plan is step 4. Definitely have not seen this occur yet.
What you have seen is not always what has (or hasn't, in this case) occurred.
I support NOT SUGARCOATING feedback.
Same here.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
BioEngine wrote:
How is the Dev game played, Calc?
Certainly not by whining. Let me tell you a little story. A fresh young Corr by the name of Calculus wandered into the Corr Forum. He immediately started a barage of 'What about Ranger?' posts. The devs were angered by this action. Calc was reprimanded. Calc then served the Ranger Community and the devs for amny more months and made an observation: the devs did not respond to flames of the devs of other corrs with kindness. They smote the offending posters. The devs did, however, respond to the posters who made good, solid arguments, but not always.
Enter, the Jedi. Calculus also noticed that there were an awful lot of Jedi Correspondents. Yes, they were there to represent other professions, but they were Jedi at heart. Many of these psuedo-Jedi Corrs made very well worded areguments, and since there were 8 separate voices, the were heard. The devs made sure to note that it was not the whiners on the jedi forum that made the difference, but it was good, solid arguments that swayed them.
(WARNING: Pure bitterness and speculation) Enter, the bureaucrats. The powers that be then decided that they liked the direction Jedi was heading, and told the devs to make Jedi THE reason to play SWG. The peeps ate this up like buttered popcorn.
Calculus used his vast obsevation skills to deduce that 1) the devs hate whining, 2) the devs like well thought out arguments and 3) the devs no longer have a say as to what gets done with SWG.
I really don't mean this to be as condescending as it sounds!!!
Now, what I would like to see is some respect for the Corrs and yes, the glowie. We have been on the inside and seen how the Dev game is played. When one of says something of that nature, please heed our words. When another backs up the first person, please realise that there is a trend here. If a third indeed says that the other two are right, you need to think really hard about the fact that we know what we are talking about.
I have shown respect, for the most part, but there is a difference between informing and pursuading. If you repeat yourself, then it comes off as pursuading, and therefore hints the mentality of "I'm right, you're wrong."I know that's not what you were thinking. I am merely trying to interpret the effects of words on the actions of others, and state what I observe in the hopes that it puts a perspective on the situation. Most of the time, when miscommunication exists, things tend to escalate aspeople assum the reasons for what someone says on the forums and use that speculation to determine their own response.
However, I reserve the right to make my point in my own manner, just as I have allowed you to. If someone come in and says 'We need to whine' and I don't say anything, I am just as guilty as the troll.
Take this as you will, but I DO believe I am right, and that those who think whining will achieve their goals are wrong. Just as you think my methods are wrong and are perfectly justified to tell me.
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 07-19-2005 04:08 PM
...
The devs dont like a lot of things and the way you post impacts how much they listen a lot. They wont ignore a bad issue, sometimes they will even respond, but Tiggs and TH definatly wont be as enthusiastic about putting the effort into compilling and communicating an issue with the devs if we are moaning and generally going nuts about it.
...
I think that's the problem that people have.
It's very understandable that the devs are human too, and of course they're going to be upset and not want to help people who whine, complain, moan, and carry on with how much they hate the devs all time. Any of us would be upset at people who treat us that way, and rightfully so.
As my Grandma always says "You catch more flys with honey than you do vinager!" (putting aside the question of why on earth I'd want to catch a fly....) It does make sense, and everyone's happier when everyone uses proffesional language to communicate a problem. I think we are better off trying to have a good relationship with the devs instead of whining at them like a bunch of kindergarden kids.
All that said, we are paying to play this game. We DO deserve certain things, and there is a problem when we are not getting what we are paying for. SOE is a company, and as such they should treat thier customers a certian way. I work in customer support, and I get people on occasion that whine, yell, curse, and threaten me (thankfully those types are very rare...) and of course I don't want to help them when they do that. But I have to, it's my job.
The issue seems to be that it FEELS like the devs are letting the whining get to them, and not doing thier job... let me re-iterate that it FEELS this way sometimes. I do NOT think that that's acutally what's going on, but when we hear nothing at all from them except very clinical sounding annoncements, and everyone has a bunch of cool ideas and as far as we know, the devs ignore them, tempers will flare.
I'm guessing that a lot of this can be blamed on both lawyers, and people that sue at the drop of a hat. The legal disclaimer that we click OK to at the beginning of the game for example, anyone read that? Full of mumbo jumbo that does dictate some of what we can and can't expect, just to avoid some nut suing because he only got a plush bantha (actual example not used to avoid riots
.)I think the same thing is true of the devs "lack of communication". I'd almost bet that they have a lot of good ideas of stuff that they'd love to share with us, but can't because of legal reasons (i.e. telling floating an idea around, having it not work out for whatever reason, and someone sueing because something "promised" didn't happen.)
The sad part is, all of these frustration problems could be solved VERY easily, but they won't for legal reasons.
So, what's the upshot of this overly-verbose post? There are communication barriers for a varity of reasons, and a little trust and open, kind, proffesional courtesy is the best way to work around them. So don't whine, it may vent frustration, but too much of it, and even more barriers are put up.
Alright. I'm done venting. I have to go home and play SWG.
Thanks for adding some excitement to my day.
I support Nekrosis. Damn that guy gives some good loot. If only I could /burstrun all the way there.
I support hunting jedi. I fear as a MBH/MRanger I'm going to be getting killed alotby high level Jedi now that I have no idea what I'm going after.
I support the Valcyn Server.
Peace Out.
So, you pay for food at McDonalds. You get crappy service. You go back again, and get crappy service again. You go back again...wait, why not just stop going! It is not your right to get good service. Now, it's in their best interest to offer you good service to keep you happy, but if you are continaully unhappy, why would you keep going back? If you rant to a McDonalds worker what do you get? Better service or the Secret Sauce
.This is just my opinion, take it at that.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Here's where I offend the Rangers that I haven't already. By paying to play, we are not ENTITLED to ANYTHING! How many games (or other software) do you own that has such a wide range of options and continual updates? You paid for those, why don't they give you updates. Now, before you start, don't forget you are paying for the use of the servers. You have to accept the EULA every time you log in. You agree to play on THEIR terms and you give up your right to entitlement.
So, you pay for food at McDonalds. You get crappy service. You go back again, and get crappy service again. You go back again...wait, why not just stop going! It is not your right to get good service. Now, it's in their best interest to offer you good service to keep you happy, but if you are continaully unhappy, why would you keep going back? If you rant to a McDonalds worker what do you get? Better service or the Secret Sauce
This is just my opinion, take it at that.
When I said you are not entitled to anything, I meant you are not entitled to Dev Love/fixes/ungrades, etc. You are certainly allowed to complain, but my point was, make sure you realize that the way you present yourself has consequences.
Phenix1050 wrote:
you know what? So would Smugglers, Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths, Dancers, Musicians, Commandos, Creature Handlers, Squad Leaders, Droid Engineers, Bio-Engineers, Tailors, etc.
SpecForceRanger wrote:
I'd settle for a DEV posting on our Forum that went something like this:
(snip)
We're not the only ones waiting. All of the professions I listed need help in one way or another.
*girds himself*
Well....here we are again, with most of again poised to clash swords with each other over what route to take to get some things completed for this profession. I am going to try...very hard...to relax. I would ask you all...to please note the tone that can be read in your posts. Folks from both sides....Phenix/Calc/ and the Peace Brigade, and BioEngine/Goldear/Sicksix and the Thanagarians.
Both sides have legitimate points, yet both sides are coming across in a very negative tone. I had a long talk with Calc last week, and I came to the realization that venting in the forums isn't really helping anyone. It only seems to feed the desire to bash each other in the head because we can't reach a Dev to bash. Paks says things have gotten better and I agree to an extent, but I miss the days that caused this forum to have the reputation it has earned. I still don't see that today, or really since N'Raas was told we were the ultimate creature hunter
I would simply ask right now that Owen weigh in, and have he and Paks request a simple, informal, chat with a Dev. Any Dev. Just 15 minutes for our correspondents to say "Look, this is pretty simple if you just look at it." I would even be amenable to having the infamous 10 answers to 10 questions format brought back. Where is Thunderheart these days anyway?
The fact of the matter is, is that we need some information from the development team. There is only one profession in the list I quoted above that deserves more attention than we do, and honestly, they got some attention with the slicing changes/additions. We need mre than a red name popping in and saying "ok, I'll play a Ranger for a while". We have been extremely patient, submitted countless ideas and proposals all of which has fallen on completely deaf ears. The flip side though, the anger, the flames, has not accomplished anything either. I think it's time Paks and Owen go to their forum and ask them simply.."What more do we need to do for you to acknowledge our issues?" Because as far as we know....we have done it all.
Respectfully....
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
When I said you are not entitled to anything, I meant you are not entitled to Dev Love/fixes/ungrades, etc. You are certainly allowed to complain, but my point was, make sure you realize that the way you present yourself has consequences.
Why are we even having this discussion?
From the moment I started posting in this forum everyone said that they were patient and that Ranger is not a profession it is a lifestyle. I agree with this. Yet this thread reminds me of something that I read in the Jedi and BH forums.
So this publish came and we didnt get anything....so what. Im just as eager as the rest of you to see some love to the Ranger Skill Tree and our tools. But this topic is right up there with "my jeditoon was killed because I dont know how to use it...so nerf the BH's for killing me"
Yes the ranger it appears is the most ignored profession in the game. But what are you complaining about? no revamp? Look what happened to the CH. Thier revamp pretty much killed them...and it keeps getting slaughtered with every publish and fix. The Ent now have pretty lights and colors ...but now they are not nessecary because a function was removed from the game that actually made sense. Now they have to hope that people will watch them just for the pretty lights.
Im not saying that we do not have something to complain about...but this discussion is totally un- Ranger like.
/areatrack for jedi with forcecloak on
Message Edited by frankenstienmonster on 07-19-2005 06:33 PM