Ranger Archive
Thread: Ranger Skill Points: Post CU
Owen-Lars
Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:30 am
#66
Jolandir Wrote:
"We are considered a none combat profession as either scout or ranger"
Actually we are considered outside the scope of the CU, big difference.
glory
Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:44 am
#67
For some silly reason I thought the ranger moderator was supposed to be on our side? AND listen to our opinions and what we would really like not just his/her own likes and dislikes?
I want what other combat classes have. I want to be able to master a combat profession AND have enough points to have novice medic like every other combat class. Now...how does that insult the ranger?
What is so wrong with asking SOE to reduce the rangers skill points in fairness since only our class has to master scouting and still get a combat profession master? That is two more rows and 1 master skillpoint more than everyone else. With those skill points I could get novice artisan and novice medic so I could heal a partner who is hunting with me same as he would heal me...and survey to put down harvesters...and yes...I do survey prior to putting them down.
I want what other combat classes have. I want to be able to master a combat profession AND have enough points to have novice medic like every other combat class. Now...how does that insult the ranger?
What is so wrong with asking SOE to reduce the rangers skill points in fairness since only our class has to master scouting and still get a combat profession master? That is two more rows and 1 master skillpoint more than everyone else. With those skill points I could get novice artisan and novice medic so I could heal a partner who is hunting with me same as he would heal me...and survey to put down harvesters...and yes...I do survey prior to putting them down.
Owen-Lars
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:07 am
#68
Glory Wrote:
"For some silly reason I thought the ranger moderator"
Who be the Ranger Moderator?
Vorpaks
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:28 am
#69
Owen-Lars wrote:Glory Wrote:"For some silly reason I thought the ranger moderator"Who be the Ranger Moderator?
That would be you Owen. Fun isn't it? Its your job to read every post on this forum, every post on the Corr forum, every post on the CU forum, every post on the in-testing and TC forums, to answer all the questions, to post all the concerns to the Developers and elicit responses in a timely manner, spend time every day testing the new system and understanding everything and reporting all bugs and giving feedback on every thread immaginable put there for you to give feedback on and always stay polite and reasonable even after reading the same baseless hysteria for the upteenth time you may never loose your cool or get annoyed and also never state your own opinions. Oh ya and don't forget your RL life like classes, homework, social life, family, sleep, etc.
Sounds like a fun job.
(Just to clear up glory I am not aiming this at you, it is purely to tease Owen. I am sure, in our saner moments we all know and appreciate the tremendous job he has done and is currently doing for us. I am in constant awe of the drive, dedication and love shown to this game by our Correspondents. You are truely the best of us.
)
darmokVtS
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:32 am
#70
Btw, about that "I want novice medic skills" topic.
/bactashot (the pack-less medic-heal) at novice medic level heals for *less* points (somewhere in the 120-140 range, not exactly a very helpful heal if you ask me) than the 5 charges healpack which I found in my inv after creating my char on TC-5 (those are bio engineer crafted later and enhanceable, so the versions we can see on live are very likely even better) which requires no medic skill to use. The novice medic box alone post-curb is comparably useful as a lone novice marksman box if you are a melee elite :-).
Why would you want novice medic again (keep in mind, woundhealing is not a medic ability anymore but requires novice doctor)?
Btw, just for the record, I personally am strongly *against* skillpoint reduction (skillpoint reduction removes a decent argument to give us more skills), I want the 140 skillpoints we spend on mastery be worth the 140 skillpoints :-).
/bactashot (the pack-less medic-heal) at novice medic level heals for *less* points (somewhere in the 120-140 range, not exactly a very helpful heal if you ask me
) than the 5 charges healpack which I found in my inv after creating my char on TC-5 (those are bio engineer crafted later and enhanceable, so the versions we can see on live are very likely even better) which requires no medic skill to use. The novice medic box alone post-curb is comparably useful as a lone novice marksman box if you are a melee elite :-).Why would you want novice medic again (keep in mind, woundhealing is not a medic ability anymore but requires novice doctor)?
Btw, just for the record, I personally am strongly *against* skillpoint reduction (skillpoint reduction removes a decent argument to give us more skills
), I want the 140 skillpoints we spend on mastery be worth the 140 skillpoints :-).Message Edited by darmokVtS on 04-06-2005 07:46 PM
Owen-Lars
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:56 am
#71
Lol Paks,you had my heart going for a minute then
First of all: Representive is more accurate i think, im not a mod in that im here to control anyone (the post topics etc) or remove/move posts we have people employed by seo for that.
Secondly: I represent the feelings and opinions of the community and correspond those to the devs and will do even if i personally disagree with them. A few things i wont do thoughare:
- Forward un-rangerlike opinions and 'arguments'. Ranger havea reputation around here to players and the devsof beinggreat posters that dont loose it and cry if something goes wrong, we discuss, we present, we provide feedback. Im not prepared to throw thatatmosphere and attitudeout the window.
- Tell someone their opinion is 'wrong'. Everyone has a right to an opinion but if i disagree with it then ill say so, it doesnt make their opion less valid though.
- Control what people are saying. If you have a negative/possitive opinion then you are welcome to state it but do it in a constructive way, dont act like an ass by presenting other ranger postersin a bad lightand certainly dont 'argue' an opinion because i cant stand that.
- Be anyone's puppet. JB is the man when it comes to speaking his mind (Even if it does have harmfull results sometimes hehe) but i also wont just go along with something just because others are. If i disagree i will say so, if its what the community wants then ill represent it to the devs.
Basically i am here to representthe community'sopinions and i do, but that doesnt mean i have to agree with all of them on a personal level. Ill never agree with something if dont truely feel that way, but that doesnt mean i wont represent it to the devs (there have been lots of things ive presented that i didnt agree with).
As for the question itself:
"What is so wrong with asking SOE to reduce the rangers skill points in fairness since only our class has to master scouting and still get a combat profession master?"
Simply put i think reducing the skill points will harm us in the long run as it will give us less bargaining power when our revamp comes. Rangeruses ALL the knowledge areas of scout (intel gathering, personal concealment, organic collection, trapping and survival) therefore you cant realy loose any tiers in scout witout cutting something out of ranger which i feel is a bad and spur of the moment decision.
Kinshi
Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:50 am
#72
My template post-CU would be
Ranger 4/4/4/0
Master Rifleman
BH 0/0/0/2 (gives me Light Lightning Cannon & Scatter Pistol certs)
Marksman 4/0/0/4
Heightend Senses 0/1/0/0 (lets me /survey w/o Artisan )
Enhanced Reflexes 3/0/0/0 (increases my ranged defenses)
(those 4 extra SP are NOT wasted if you are Glowy)
I dont like dropping Master Ranger (I love that tag) but I gotta put funcionality before pride. The BH gives me access as a Ranger to a 2nd Combat Profession, it also gives me access to Assault Armor, Light Lightning Cannon certification, and Scatter Pistol certification, as well as access to new specials.
Plus its hard to feel bad about losing trapping skills to get the SP for my proposed template. (trapping just doesnt do a whole lot for me right now, and lets face it as a ranged profession, having a ability that does little more than gain aggro on me, and makes creatures run into melee range is a really bad thing). The SP are better spent elsewhere at this time.
No I still would not have the maxium HAM possible but its not really necessary for a ranged fighter (if you are a rifleman and you are getting shot at, you are doing something wrong typically). Between Ranger Camo & Rifleman Cover, I intend to remain one stealthy Rodian. (I do feel for the melee guys since they make a living out of getting punched in the face or getting gnawed on, they need the large HAMS a lot more than I do)
Ranger 4/4/4/0
Master Rifleman
BH 0/0/0/2 (gives me Light Lightning Cannon & Scatter Pistol certs)
Marksman 4/0/0/4
Heightend Senses 0/1/0/0 (lets me /survey w/o Artisan )
Enhanced Reflexes 3/0/0/0 (increases my ranged defenses)
(those 4 extra SP are NOT wasted if you are Glowy)
I dont like dropping Master Ranger (I love that tag) but I gotta put funcionality before pride. The BH gives me access as a Ranger to a 2nd Combat Profession, it also gives me access to Assault Armor, Light Lightning Cannon certification, and Scatter Pistol certification, as well as access to new specials.
Plus its hard to feel bad about losing trapping skills to get the SP for my proposed template. (trapping just doesnt do a whole lot for me right now, and lets face it as a ranged profession, having a ability that does little more than gain aggro on me, and makes creatures run into melee range is a really bad thing). The SP are better spent elsewhere at this time.
No I still would not have the maxium HAM possible but its not really necessary for a ranged fighter (if you are a rifleman and you are getting shot at, you are doing something wrong typically). Between Ranger Camo & Rifleman Cover, I intend to remain one stealthy Rodian. (I do feel for the melee guys since they make a living out of getting punched in the face or getting gnawed on, they need the large HAMS a lot more than I do)
darmokVtS
Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:57 am
#73
Kinshi wrote:
(trapping just doesnt do a whole lot for me right now, and lets face it as a ranged profession, having a ability that does little more than gain aggro on me, and makes creatures run into melee range is a really bad thing)
It's btw interesting to see this for me as I personally came to a completly different result about traps post-cu/r/b *if* I will switch to a ranged ranger (this is all about the as of yet IMHO still unclear "healthbonus" situation, I'll be tank-type melee ranger - tka or pikeman - if we get the full 3k from a single elite master, I'll be ranged ranger - rifleman very likely - if we don't get it). Traps would then for a change be again useful to me as I should be most interested to keep creatures away from me, the root and snare effects I can get from traps help here as we know.
Almagill
Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:15 am
#74
Owen-Lars wrote:
Glory wrote:"What is so wrong with asking SOE to reduce the rangers skill points in fairness since only our class has to master scouting and still get a combat profession master?"
Simply put i think reducing the skill points will harm us in the long run as it will give us less bargaining power when our revamp comes. Ranger uses ALL the knowledge areas of scout (intel gathering, personal concealment, organic collection, trapping and survival) therefore you cant realy loose any tiers in scout witout cutting something out of ranger which i feel is a bad and spur of the moment decision.
A good case in point would be.... Bounty Hunter.
You previously had to master scout to get Novice BH, but that was trimmed right back to just one line of scout. Now, when BH ask for some sort of trap that can be used against players/vehicles they are told "ah well, if you had any sort of trapping skill in your pre-requisits.." The only way out for them would be the addition of the trapping line back in, tying up more SP's, meaning other skills have to be dropped out.
If we give up lines from our prerequisites we lose functions in Ranger. If we want to keep the same functionality of Scout but in fewer lines (as some have suggested) that means completely rewriting Scout, say WHAT?? If we reduce the SP investment in our part of the tree, so that each box is 'cheaper' we will see a lot more dabblers.
Any one of these options would have a significant impact on Ranger and how it is percieved. As another Corr said recently "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it".
Keeping Ranger at its current SP level but doing a proper revamp to make it WORTH the investment would give us the best of all worlds. However, the problem there is that, if we give Ranger a combat capability plus creature to hit/dodge modifier plus ALL of the things we're asking for in Outdoorsman or any other proposal floating around atm, it could result in Ranger being perceived of as overpowered, certainly out of balance with the other elite professions.
There is a balance to be found, I'm sure of that, but it's almost certainly going to hurt, it's certainly not going to happen "tomorrow" and, even if there are parts we really like, within a month people will be asking for changes
BaneShee
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:20 am
#75
Ok here's my take. I think we need to go for the SP reduction ASAP.
From the devs perspective, the CU is mostly about balancing the Elite Profs. and I can't see them changing that coursejust because Rangers currently have a bigger investment. If we hold firm to keeping the extra SP's in the hope that we will get additional(or possibly unbalancing in the devs opinion) features that justify our investment then we run the risk of being balanced with the other Elites but at a higher investment. Personally Icant see the devs letting us be unbalanced or over powered so I think we will lose the SP's sooner or later.
Calculus_Entropy
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:24 am
#76
BaneShee wrote:
Ok here's my take. I think we need to go for the SP reduction ASAP.
From the devs perspective, the CU is mostly about balancing the Elite Profs. and I can't see them changing that coursejust because Rangers currently have a bigger investment. If we hold firm to keeping the extra SP's in the hope that we will get additional(or possibly unbalancing in the devs opinion) features that justify our investment then we run the risk of being balanced with the other Elites but at a higher investment. Personally Icant see the devs letting us be unbalanced or over powered so I think we will lose the SP's sooner or later.
No, it's not. It is about balancing Combat. There is a big difference.
Cdapolito
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:28 am
#77
ex-ranger trolling:
Wouldn't the simplest solution be to add Melee Def, Ranged Def, General Ranged Accuracy and General Ranged Speed to Ranger? Heckthey could even throw in some General Melee Accuracy and Speed to round things out.
Then you keep what you have, but get a combat advantage when mixing Ranger in with another (yes Ranger is one) combat profession.
Ifthey do Revamp you those skills can be 'fixed' or removed as necessary... no SP reduction, no pre-req reduction, just a few simple additions that can be changed later if needed.
Dark_0ne
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:44 am
#78
From my perspective, the issue really is that we are currently creature-centric, but combat is generic. We get bonuses against creatures, and traps that work on creatures.
If the Devs truly see us as a creature based profession then it will be a dificult discussion trying to get them to give us extra generic combat skills.
That being said, I think the way forward is to keep the Skillpoint allocations as they are, keep the pre-requisites as they are, keep the scouting profession as it is - cos it is a great, well-worked profession IMO and needs little if any improvements.
That brings us to the revamp - and what we ask for, and more to the point what we are likely to be allowed to have.
To bring Ranger in line with the other elite combat professions, I think it is best to start with the following question :
If a Master xxxx Master yyyy combatant was facing a Master xxxx Master Ranger, how much worse off would the Ranger be ? Is Ranger worth 1/2 a combat profession in terms of plain combat ?
or 1/3 ? or 2/3 ?
Once that decision is made, it should be easy to add in health bonuses, weapon certs. specials etc. as well as the real bit of the revamp which fixes and adds to the proper Ranger skills ;-) and gives us the Hat !!
If the Devs truly see us as a creature based profession then it will be a dificult discussion trying to get them to give us extra generic combat skills.
That being said, I think the way forward is to keep the Skillpoint allocations as they are, keep the pre-requisites as they are, keep the scouting profession as it is - cos it is a great, well-worked profession IMO and needs little if any improvements.
That brings us to the revamp - and what we ask for, and more to the point what we are likely to be allowed to have.
To bring Ranger in line with the other elite combat professions, I think it is best to start with the following question :
If a Master xxxx Master yyyy combatant was facing a Master xxxx Master Ranger, how much worse off would the Ranger be ? Is Ranger worth 1/2 a combat profession in terms of plain combat ?
or 1/3 ? or 2/3 ?
Once that decision is made, it should be easy to add in health bonuses, weapon certs. specials etc. as well as the real bit of the revamp which fixes and adds to the proper Ranger skills ;-) and gives us the Hat !!