Ranger Archive

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SeanBlader wrote:
Since you made the point to even think that I was being political about your previous post, I'll finish breaking it down, that far part was just the part that I disagreed with the most, and the reason why I didn't apply for the correspondant position.

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Maxanto wrote:

In real life there are Rangers. I have known quite a few when I was in the army. These are the guys they send into enemy lines to scout and set up opp stations...sometimes even excucation.

In SW there were 2 kinds I can think of. One were the antirian rangers and the other were imperial scouts.

In reality and in star wars they are all the same.... highly specialized militiary forces with a deep understanding of survivle and stealth. IMHO rangers should be excellent at survivle as well as recon and warfare. We are in the middle of the GCW. Do you think they had rangers that went out skinning hides for the empire? Or out tracking rebels to where they hid?

To me its obvious the direction we should go. I just hope the devs see it too.

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The first thing you need to realize is that the game and real life are not the same. The producers have said in person that they take liberties with reality, and with Star Wars canon so that they can have a game that's more fun to play. Playing an imperial storm trooper wouldn't be fun if you died in one shot, neither would it be fun if you were a rebel trooper either.

Also, don't compare military rangers with SWG rangers, you can bet that military rangers don't harvest meat, hides or bone off creatures for domestic use. Nor do they throw traps that only work on creatures, and while they can probably be a little more effective negotiation rough terrain, that is not specifically one quarter of their skillset. In reality and Star Wars Galaxies, they are very different, one is a highly specialized military unit, and the other is a butcher.

Perhaps the direction for you is obvious, but then you'll want to tell that to Blixtev who specifically said, while standing 3 feet away from me, "I mean, who the hell knows what a Star Wars Ranger is supposed to be?" That's the kind of insight one goes to FanFest for. What will happen is that we'll be told what a Star Wars Ranger is supposed to be, and before we even have any clue that they're even looking at the profession, there will be patch notes on TC. It's likely that they'll come to this conclusion after reading the stickies here and then doing their own thing anyway that they will consider fun.

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With limitations. Lets not forget that there are many restrictions and or guidelines we have no knowledge of imposed by the owner of the Star Wars license which is not SOE.

I've avoided stepping into this part of the debate but I think this paragraph from what Keldarin said about the Squad Leader changes is poignant to the discussion at hand:

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Squad Leader has two primary roles that of group leadership and that of group enhancement. The previous focus on group leadership seemed to cause some perception problems with Squad Leader that turned players away from even trying the profession. There is also the problem that true leadership is not something that can ever be granted through character skills but is something almost intangible that is possessed by the player regardless of what character they are playing. These observations made me decide to concentrate on the group enhancement role of the Squad Leader profession. Group enhancement is a game mechanic that benefits everyone and really gives a solid strength and purpose to the profession. The concept of group leadership is still important and specific abilities that assist in that role were given but that is no longer the primary focus of the profession. This means that players can have a rewarding purpose and enjoy playing a Squad Leader regardless of whether they are the group leader or not. This also means that multiple Squad Leaders in a group can continue to benefit and enhance the group the same way multiple Riflemen or multiple Bounty Hunters do.

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SeanBlader wrote:

Also, don't compare military rangers with SWG rangers, you can bet that military rangers don't harvest meat, hides or bone off creatures for domestic use. Nor do they throw traps that only work on creatures, and while they can probably be a little more effective negotiation rough terrain, that is not specifically one quarter of their skillset. In reality and Star Wars Galaxies, they are very different, one is a highly specialized military unit, and the other is a butcher.

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I think the point is not that they are the same but rather that they could be the same. The primary difference is in the way the game rolls out the military stuff. I mean, even while we choose sides in the war, we are not true soldiers in any sense, I believe the NPC recruiters even say that while they are promoting you, that you are more or less a mercenary. It wouldn't be any fun to roleplay a stormtrooper to the hilt, because the degree of regimentation in your toon life would be so extreme as to cease being any fun at all. That in consideration, one has to ask what rangers might do on their "off-time." Harvesting from creature corpses might seem like a rangers full time work but I suggest that its only either off duty work or the work of non-conscripted rangers. Allowing this to become our one and only job makes us very similar to the Davy Crockett frontiersman, and while he might be a very solid hero template, I think we need to do what we can to seperate us from the mindset that this is all we are. Weve allowed ourselves to be pushed into the role of the weekend warriors, instead of weekday warriors who only kill for fun on the weekends.

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

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Phenix1050 wrote:

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Serraphin wrote:

Hmm, again I am a little confused but maybe people mean here is Creatures 1/3, NPCs 1/3, Players (PVP) 1/3

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exactly.

there's only three types of targets in this game, and we can areatrack 'em all. NPCs (including droids), creatures, and players.

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So crafters are kept out of 100% of the game becuase they can't participate in combat? I don't get it...

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And my crafting toon didn't buy ROTW and if I hadn't cancelled her account, wouldn't have bought the new one either. It was annoying never being able to do the quests that awarded all the exotic schematics. There is no content for crafters post-CU, pre-CU a suit of Composite armor and a buff put you in the fight, at least against npcs.

Message Edited by Arawaen on 09-08-2005 07:21 PM

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SeanBlader wrote:

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Maxanto wrote:

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:
As someone pointed out to me in a PM...it doesn't matter what we want anyway...the devs will do what THEY want.

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I read that and got very angry at first Calc. I think that is a terrible viewpoint for a corr to have. You are here to represent our profession, not for popularity or to have a cool signature.

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Check with the Creature Handler Correspondant, or the Squad Leader Correspondant if they were even aware of the changes that were coming to their representative professions, let alone if they had any suggestions.

I do have a question though...

Is wilderness survival fun? Are there mechanics in the game to show it even exists?

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Wow, that comment got unexpected anger! I may have been the sender of that particular PM and I meant exactly what SeanBlader said. I was also thinking of the ID revamp. After that particular revamp I relaized that there are certain rules you have to accept about revamps:

1. Some of things you asked for you will get and some you won't. (they got a new interface and new colors, but no new hairstyles)

2. You will get some things you never asked for but are pretty cool. (Holoemotes. Weird... but cool.)

3. You will get some things you never asked for and never wanted. (Stat migrations. Noooooooo!)


So be prepared. They probably still have that stat migration code around somewhere.



My take on wilderness survival: it covers a lot of things. I see maskscent, camo, stealth, camps that actually repel aggro, terrain negotiation and the "Ranger Toughness" concept - added defenses and resists - all to be aspects of wilderness survival. I understand where you are coming from because I feel personally a little bitter about the term "survival" when there is nothing in the game to survive (at least nothing a level 80 combat class can't survive just as well or better). But I think that it is a concept that if they took and ran with it, or developed it as it were, and made it useful and the benefits apparent, I think it could be very fun.

I certainly enjoyed, when I first made my character and didnt really understand how things worked, thinking that I could move through the wilderness unmoletested and if anything attacked my friends I could /rescue them and move on. (And of course I was happy to be a wookiee because obviously my great strength would make me the perfect tank and my long legs meant I could run faster!) And then of course the wrixes ate me for breakfast and I accidently rescued an NPC once and all my friends turned around and shot me. But the dream didn't die!! I guess that's why I am still here.

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

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Phenix1050 wrote:
okay, Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game. Let's not split hairs here, Calc.

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Let's not over exaggerate, either. There is NOTHING in this game that I can't do becuase I chose Ranger.

EDIT: I guess spelling isn't my thing today.

Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 09-08-2005 09:08 AM

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Can you defeat a fully templated combat character one on one?

Can you get hit through an entire fight with the Necrosis mobs and live?

Can you stand up to CL 83 NPC's at factional bases without it being "too close for comfort?"

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Vorpaks wrote:

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SeanBlader wrote:

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Maxanto wrote:

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:
As someone pointed out to me in a PM...it doesn't matter what we want anyway...the devs will do what THEY want.

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I read that and got very angry at first Calc. I think that is a terrible viewpoint for a corr to have. You are here to represent our profession, not for popularity or to have a cool signature.

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Check with the Creature Handler Correspondant, or the Squad Leader Correspondant if they were even aware of the changes that were coming to their representative professions, let alone if they had any suggestions.

I do have a question though...

Is wilderness survival fun? Are there mechanics in the game to show it even exists?

---

Wow, that comment got unexpected anger! I may have been the sender of that particular PM and I meant exactly what SeanBlader said. I was also thinking of the ID revamp. After that particular revamp I relaized that there are certain rules you have to accept about revamps:

1. Some of things you asked for you will get and some you won't. (they got a new interface and new colors, but no new hairstyles)

2. You will get some things you never asked for but are pretty cool. (Holoemotes. Weird... but cool.)

3. You will get some things you never asked for and never wanted. (Stat migrations. Noooooooo!)


So be prepared. They probably still have that stat migration code around somewhere.



My take on wilderness survival: it covers a lot of things. I see maskscent, camo, stealth, camps that actually repel aggro, terrain negotiation and the "Ranger Toughness" concept - added defenses and resists - all to be aspects of wilderness survival. I understand where you are coming from because I feel personally a little bitter about the term "survival" when there is nothing in the game to survive (at least nothing a level 80 combat class can't survive just as well or better). But I think that it is a concept that if they took and ran with it, or developed it as it were, and made it useful and the benefits apparent, I think it could be very fun.

I certainly enjoyed, when I first made my character and didnt really understand how things worked, thinking that I could move through the wilderness unmoletested and if anything attacked my friends I could /rescue them and move on. (And of course I was happy to be a wookiee because obviously my great strength would make me the perfect tank and my long legs meant I could run faster!) And then of course the wrixes ate me for breakfast and I accidently rescued an NPC once and all my friends turned around and shot me. But the dream didn't die!! I guess that's why I am still here.

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Well we can exagerate all we want. Funny how the rest of my post... heck the line after I made that comment... about how I am sure that isnt the case, was completely ignored. That shows me just how political you guys are.

I hope Paks and Calc both understand how important your "jobs" are. You represent the famous professions of quiet patient people. I pray that you are well spoken in that mystical corr forum none of us lower lifeforms have access to. Paks if you are the one who said to calc about how they won't even listen to you anyways...If you both feel that way maybe we need to give you guys time off and let new blood represent us. I am not saying that either of you are not fulfilling your responcibilities but that is a traggic attitude to have. You guys are the only one that the devs "might" listen to.

As I also said. I respect what you both do. I would never want that responcibility because I know, and can imagine, how hard it is. Stay strong you two and continue putting up the good fight.

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BioEngine wrote:

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

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Phenix1050 wrote:
okay, Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game. Let's not split hairs here, Calc.

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Let's not over exaggerate, either. There is NOTHING in this game that I can't do becuase I chose Ranger.

EDIT: I guess spelling isn't my thing today.

Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 09-08-2005 09:08 AM

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Can you defeat a fully templated combat character one on one?

Can you get hit through an entire fight with the Necrosis mobs and live?

Can you stand up to CL 83 NPC's at factional bases without it being "too close for comfort?"

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Who can guarantee success in any of those situations? I have had successes and failures in every one of those situations, with and without my Ranger character.

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

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BioEngine wrote:

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

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Phenix1050 wrote:
okay, Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game. Let's not split hairs here, Calc.

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Let's not over exaggerate, either. There is NOTHING in this game that I can't do becuase I chose Ranger.

EDIT: I guess spelling isn't my thing today.

Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 09-08-2005 09:08 AM

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Can you defeat a fully templated combat character one on one?

Can you get hit through an entire fight with the Necrosis mobs and live?

Can you stand up to CL 83 NPC's at factional bases without it being "too close for comfort?"

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Who can guarantee success in any of those situations? I have had successes and failures in every one of those situations, with and without my Ranger character.

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I don't think that was his question. No one should be able to "guarantee success" right? Thats why they "ballanced" the professions. He is merely asking... Can you ...ever? I would have to say no. Unless your opponent was 20 cl's lower than you, you have little or NO chance at beating them.

So lets be honest and answer some simple yes or no questions ok?

1) No

2) No

3) No

That was easy.

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SeanBlader wrote:
Since you made the point to even think that I was being political about your previous post, I'll finish breaking it down, that far part was just the part that I disagreed with the most, and the reason why I didn't apply for the correspondant position.

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Maxanto wrote:

In real life there are Rangers. I have known quite a few when I was in the army. These are the guys they send into enemy lines to scout and set up opp stations...sometimes even excucation.

In SW there were 2 kinds I can think of. One were the antirian rangers and the other were imperial scouts.

In reality and in star wars they are all the same.... highly specialized militiary forces with a deep understanding of survivle and stealth. IMHO rangers should be excellent at survivle as well as recon and warfare. We are in the middle of the GCW. Do you think they had rangers that went out skinning hides for the empire? Or out tracking rebels to where they hid?

To me its obvious the direction we should go. I just hope the devs see it too.

---

The first thing you need to realize is that the game and real life are not the same. The producers have said in person that they take liberties with reality, and with Star Wars canon so that they can have a game that's more fun to play. Playing an imperial storm trooper wouldn't be fun if you died in one shot, neither would it be fun if you were a rebel trooper either.

Also, don't compare military rangers with SWG rangers, you can bet that military rangers don't harvest meat, hides or bone off creatures for domestic use. Nor do they throw traps that only work on creatures, and while they can probably be a little more effective negotiation rough terrain, that is not specifically one quarter of their skillset. In reality and Star Wars Galaxies, they are very different, one is a highly specialized military unit, and the other is a butcher.

Perhaps the direction for you is obvious, but then you'll want to tell that to Blixtev who specifically said, while standing 3 feet away from me, "I mean, who the hell knows what a Star Wars Ranger is supposed to be?" That's the kind of insight one goes to FanFest for. What will happen is that we'll be told what a Star Wars Ranger is supposed to be, and before we even have any clue that they're even looking at the profession, there will be patch notes on TC. It's likely that they'll come to this conclusion after reading the stickies here and then doing their own thing anyway that they will consider fun.

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1st Where did I say you specifically was being political? Honestly until I read this one post of yours... I never knew you existed.

2nd "The first thing you need to realize is that the game and real life are not the same." Phew that was a close one... Here I thought I was a dosh. A completly absurd thing to state.

3rd "don't compare military rangers with SWG rangers" If you bothered to actually READ my post instead of just assuming I was flaming you... I compared real life rangers and rangers in the star wars story (yea see yet again I know its fiction) and both were used in military applications.

Lastly. This game has been out for over 2 years... and SOE admits they STILL don't know what direction to go with us? After how many posts that we put idea's out? Me personally, this should have been decieded BEFORE game release.

Pathetic.

What I have a problem with, specifically, is that it would be suicide to grind Ranger first and your combat complementary profession second.

Box for Box, brawlers and marksmen will survive a fight and deal damage. Scouts just have to focus on surviving it.....

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BioEngine wrote:

What I have a problem with, specifically, is that it would be suicide to grind Ranger first and your combat complementary profession second.

Box for Box, brawlers and marksmen will survive a fight and deal damage. Scouts just have to focus on surviving it.....

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Actually - it's not that bad - I dropped all of my carbine skills, including novice marksman to get enough medic and BE skills to do the FS persuasion quest. So, I basically had to start over, but I really didn't have a problem taking out things of my level. Being over CL54 meant that I could use a decent damage weapon (laster carbine) and the health bonuses + the full battle armor mitigation didn't hurt either. Of course, I was taking down creature lairs mostly, so I could use my ranger traps. But I was amazed at how well I did, relatively speaking of course. Oh, I should also add that I kept a lot of medic skills (have been surrendering them as I progress up the carbines tree, so we'll see how it goes when I'm near master carbineer again and don't have any skillpoints for medic.

Iseult
Master Ranger / Mediocre Carbineer
Bloodfin

Message Edited by Iseult on 09-09-2005 10:24 AM