Ranger Archive
Thread: The Top 5 Bug Responses
/conceal: This command allows you to apply a camoflage kit to become far less detectable by NPCs and creatures while in the concealed state. This can be used on other players.
This is word for word from the /concel command in-game. It sounds to me like they intended for it to work vs NPCs. I am really close to dropping most of this sad excuse of a profession. The ONLY useful line being the tracking/hunting line. **edit** these bug responses have ticked me off 
Rangers are intended to be uber-CHs? Sorry, not interested anymore. Creature Handlers are already too uber. My preference would be to take the modern military view of a ranger, rather than a D&D or Middle Earth view. Sure, some woodsy ability is good, but survival and the ability to go undetected is far more appropriate in SWG. We don't need two professions occupied with Creatures.
-Mohenjo/Jarmo
StealthNuck wrote:
Zing!
As a previous poster said, we actually have yet to be shown a path. Where is it?
Help define it so I NRaas can bring me the best of your ideas. Thats all I ask and I will get it dev attention.
I don't think its too much to ask to have our traps and stuff act on "people" the way they do on animals.. but there is positively no way to set this up so a Ranger can be everyone's vision of what a Ranger should be (i.e. US Army Ranger, Rogers Rangers, Aragorn of the Dunedain, and Antarian Rangers).
Just get the DEVS to make a quality class with some truly useful skills in any one or two of the above visions and run with it. As it is RIGHT NOW.. you could take all the useful stuff out of the current Ranger set, give it to a Master Scout and make room for an entirely new class of something else.
I have said before time and time again, IN THE INTERIM .. while they are figureing it out... just DRAMATICALLY INCREASE the harvesting ability of Rangers over what it is now. This will throw us a bone, with no tough code implementations (just change the numbers in the system you currently have) and it will also address the incredible shortage of organic resources that the game is being faced with.
The problem I have is that we have little bang for the buck. At master ranger, 140 out of 250 skill points are used up. As a reward for spending all these points we get to run faster up hills (which a speederbike will now replace), use traps (many of which no one uses), tell the stats of an animal (of little practical use), make camps (only saves a trip to town), and track people/creatures.
This is all fine and dandy, but the practical uses of the above are limited. Tracking range is very limited, and with bikes now, you may as well ride around till you find what you want. Master ranger didn't make my life any easier in SWG. So, if it doesn't make be better, what is the point in spending 56% of your skill points on one profession?
I posted this in the BH profession forum,
I'm a ranger, not a BH, but let me say that human traps in the BH tree is entirely fair.
The skillmod in trapping for scout should split into two seperate skillmods.
The traps vs creatures skillmod which works it way up the ranger tree
And the Traps vs npc's skillmod which can be incorporated into the BH tree.
If the skillmod can be split then we wont have to worry about +200 trapping skillmods anywhere
Plus the addition of trapping for a BH sounds cool, is fitting and it makes those 15pts you put into scouting more worth while.
I think it applies here as well because I really would like to see the trapping skillmod split.
Say getting to master scout gets us a trapping skillmod of +50
Then we can level upto masterranger and get a creature trapping skillmod of +50
Total skillmod = 100
Maybe only a cosmetic change from our end. But it helps us focus on "creature" killing and gives the dev's some room to move for future changes (such as the proposed BH traps).
My definition would be Master of Environment.
Which means using the environment to fullest potential in all aspects: harvesting and using animal resources, camoflauge to the point of near invisibility. More or less becoming at one with nature. Using our most basic and primitive senses for survival such as an animal ( This includes heighten sight, smell, sense of our surroundings and feel while out in nature).
It needs to be appliable in PvE, PVP, GCW, and make sure we and all other professions have ability to interact to in all aspects of the game, so that we as paying players can enjoy all there is to offer.
Beausoleil wrote:
I have said before time and time again, IN THE INTERIM .. while they are figureing it out... just DRAMATICALLY INCREASE the harvesting ability of Rangers over what it is now. This will throw us a bone, with no tough code implementations (just change the numbers in the system you currently have) and it will also address the incredible shortage of organic resources that the game is being faced with.
What Beausoleil has said here is something I strongly agree with. We should be harvesting way more resources than someone who has nothing more than Hunting 4. My buddy is a CH, and i'm a Master Ranger. We did a hide pull off a mob we killed together, and I found out that I pulled only, like, 22-28%(I don't remember the exact number) more than him. I'm a MasterRanger, and as far as i'm concerned this is not an acceptable return on investment of skill points.
I agree with what all you chaps are saying about /conceal, so no use regurgitating what already has been said.
Let's keep the communication flowing people. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. We will not allow them to take NPC concealing away from us. Start threads in the SWG galaxy forum if you have to, or here in the Ranger forum. Keep them constructive, and to the point. Let the Devs know what we want for we are the Rangers of SWG, not them.
If Bounty hunters get traps versus NPC's i'm outta this game. Bounty Hunters are already one of the most powerful proffessions, and with the ability to spam their shots, they could be THE most powerful. They are killing machines. What conceivable use could they have for trapping the NPC's?? They can just kill them! Why bother trapping when you can just use an LLC and destroy anybody in your way? No way should Bounty Hunters get MORE powerful and get a skill that Rangers have.
I'd like to thank Thunderheart for his terse little message. It shows at least Devs are LOOKING at our boards. Whether or not they get what we're saying is another question alltogether, but I think it is important that we note that Rangers don't have a defined sense of who they are. There are many different views of what a Ranger should be. As there should be. Right now we have no skills that give us an identity. Bounty Hunters can see themselves as Boba Fett if they're movie fans or they can just see themselves as the best proffession for killing NPC's and PvP. THEY have an identity-- they're good at killing humanoids.
Rangers don't have this. We are according to all the descriptions, the ultimate creature killers. But in what way do we see this? We have traps that are, in most regards useless (although I found that rooting creatures is usefull, especially when combined with glow-wire traps to increase their vulnerability). We also have a slight to-hit bonus. This isn't exactly a defining skill set. Bounty Hunters recieve special attacks and certifications as a part of their identity. Their attacks hit for massive damage and as such they are great killers. We as Rangers do not have a defining ability, except for tracking, which is usefull only when soloing, and when on foot. We are so divided because there is no one way of seeing Ranger because all of the different views(survivalist, army ranger, aragorn, etc.) are valid because ANY of these views could conceivably have the skills we have. Army Rangers can track just as much as Aragorn can.
In other words, we need to either a new skill set that defines us or try to define ourselves and then ask for skills that correspond. Since the Devs choose our skills, and not us, we cannot just create a new skill for ourselves. Thus the best responce WE can give to the devs(and to NRass) is a single, unified understanding of who we are. This is near impossible given all the opposing viewpoints. However, there are certain things that we can all agree upon and certain things that while they may not appeal to all, have to be understood by all in order for Rangers to make progress.
First of all, we are playing a Star Wars game. That means that everything you do in the game revolves around the Star Wars universe. So those of you who keep bringing up Aragorn, you NEED to stop. We cannot base our class around a character who exists in another "reality." We all agree that Aragorn was cool and that he had a lot of abilities that Rangers have (i.e. tracking), but we are not playing a LOTR game. The same goes for those who try to compare us to Army Rangers. We are playing a game based in an alternate reality. Thus any comparison based on real life is intrinsically flawed because it's not based in the same understanding of reality. Basically, you don't see Aragorn or Army Rangers using or fighting against blasters or light lightning cannons because they don't exist in either of those "realities". Why then should our understanding of Rangerdom be based on those "realities."
Thus our Rangers must be Star Wars Rangers, because that is the reality in which we have chosen to play. The Antarian Rangers seem to be the closest parallel that we can have in Star Wars. Thus it would seem intelligent for us to base our characters around this understanding of it. We shouldn't necesarily change the entire skill set to coincide with this idea, since each person wants to play their game their own way, but we need SOME idea on which we can say "yeah, I want to be good at __________", much like the people who choose bounty hunters can say "yeah, I want to be good at killing people in PvP". They all have at least one thing in common. They may all have different ideas of what a bounty hunter is or does, but they have a Star Wars based idea of who they are. They use Star Wars weapons and droids and they fit into the overall scheme of Star Wars.
We as Rangers do not. Some want us to be more creature-fighting heavy, some think that we should have more PvP abilities. I can see both, but the trick is to find some things that EVERYONE can say that they took this profession up for. There can be different ways to play the Ranger, but we need a core set of values. I'm not entirely sure of what that is, because like everyone else, I have a unique way of looking at this proffession. However I will tell you what I THINK are things that define us asa class:
First- creature harvesting and knowledge. This could be utilized more effectively, I think. Besides giving us info that is generic to the creatures, it would be usefull if every animal had a "weak spot" andspecific weakness or resitanceto states like dizzy knockdown. These would be unique to every individual creature (i.e. graul 1 has a weak mind but is hard to knock down, while graul 2 has a weakness to health attacks and is easily made dizzy) This would make Rangers invaluable to hunting expeditions since they would then be able to tell you which attacks to use against a target to maximize damage. Basically a Ranger could analyze a targets particular movements and get a good idea of what that creature is weak in (i.e. creatures who act "dumb" would have lower mind and those who aren't coordinated would be easy to dizzy). Different animals of the same type don't always act the same, so each indiidual creature would have different sets of strenghts and weaknesses.
second-tracking. I think this needs to stay, since it is right now the one usefull feature. It could stand a few changes as well. I think ALL Rangers agree that you should be able to "focus" your search to a single animal, in essence following one set of tracks. In doing so, you can no longer focus on seeing all the local creatures, but you recieve a WP that would represent where the creature could be. The idea is that a skilled Ranger would be able to see how "fresh" the tracks are, and knowing how fast a creature generally travels could determine about where the creature would end up. This would get more and more accurate as you went up.
third-camoflage. I think most people agree that this should work on NPC's if we are going to retain it. if not, it needs to be gone. Why use camo when it takes resources and offers no clear bonus over mask scent. It doesn't matter what reality you base your character on, in any of these, the Ranger has the ability to hide from humanoids.
things that we might be able to lose are a lot more abundant. Traps don't fit in to everyone's understanding of a Ranger. Perhaps with them gone we could get a more defining skill set. Ditto with the increased crawl speed. Not everyone isa Ranger/Rifleman (which uses this bonus best, attacking by sneaking into and out of range while prone). Thus this skill in no way defines us. The creature to-hit bonus is nice, but without special attacks or increased damage done to animas (since if we are going to be good at hunting animals we SHOULD how to bring them down/where to shoot them, etc.) it is useless. I hit creatures more, but if I can't deal them good damage, who CARES??? Rescue also seems odd, but I actually think it should stay.
Rescue seems like a skill that Rangers have little use for, but perhaps it could be taken out of traps (and trapping removed entirely). Rescue would be an advancing skill- at first (at Novice Ranger) you could only help out players of your own faction from NPC's who would then aggro you. As you level you have a modifier that would allow for the possibilty of rescuing without being aggro'd (you make a distraction, but they can't find where it came from). As you level, you get to save people from creatures and eventually, other players. This would be implemened by having all people targeting your rescuee automatically turn towards you (or you succesfully distract and they can't see you, they turn away from their target) and send their next attack round towards you (or they would miss it if they didn't target you). You would aquire TEF's as neccesary for helping and the ultimate rescue ability as Master Ranger would be to /Rescue members of opposing factions. The idea here is that you are such a good person, have rescued so much, that you would be willing to save someone of opposing faction (they could still attack you, this is the risk you take...plus you get a TEF from your own faction.
This /rescue tree would be paired with another skill that would be modified as you went up. This should be something that ALL rangers would find usefull as a definitive ability or something that made us unique. Not sure what yet. I can't have ALL the ideas. I'm setting this post as a seperate thread because I actually felt that this should be discussed as a community and i'd like to see more ideas that give rise to a more definitive picture of the Ranger
I was a Master Ranger, dropped it a month or two ago. I enjoyed being a ranger, the skills were fun. I still miss tracking on occasion, and the camps were cool for showing off. I liked collecting hides and meat, and selling them.
Here is the problem though. Master Ranger ranks among the most expensive elite classes, skill point wise. More expensive than CH. More expensive than any of the standard combat professions, or crafting professions. You need a full novice profession before you can start it. It also gives you few combat benefits, yet you need combat skills to participate fully in the profession.
Like I said, Ranger was fun. But there are a lot of other fun things to do in this game that give much more benefit for the cost, in my opinion. In a single character per server game, character utility is very important to a lot of people. Of course, some of you enjoy the Ranger playstyle better than any other and will stay in it no matter what. Some of you like it enough to stick around hoping that the benefits increase. Some will eventually leave, like me. But regardless of how concerned with utility you are when you make character choices, I think it is a basic principle of fairness to try to give professions benefits in line with their skill point cost.
With that in mind, the last thing they should try to do is 'bug-fix' any existing camo effects on NPCs. I'm hearing the devs say (through N'Raas) that the reason it only worked on some NPCs is that it was never intended to work on any but somehow it slipped through on some. So they want to eliminate any instances where it works now. Wrong direction!!!Too hard to add to other NPCs? Fine, leave it alone until you somehow manage to drastically improve the effectiveness of the class as a whole. Given the skill point cost of the class, I don't think anyone can seriously argue that NPC camo is somehow making Rangers overpowered.
I also agree strongly with the people suggesting a -huge- boost in harvesting while the devs wait to get back around to Rangers.
I don't think my opinions about Rangers should count as much as someone who is still a Ranger... but hopefully my perspective is useful anyways.
I've been struggling to drop my ranger skill for weeks... then every once in a while i participate in a guild hunt and feel usefull. Here is how:
One of us heard of a great source of meat: Lok carnivore and herbivore were both awesome. So we went. about5 of us. Including a doctor and a BE, both very excited about the meats.
So i tracked for creatures we could hunt with the right meat (Kuzaks, Snorballs, Gruks).
We started by getting the ingredient for a cam kit. Using my droid crafting station, i made kits with 18 uses. I concealed everyone, which allowed us to walk around unmolested, and my group mates were impressed to go unoticed by pirates.
I did a few field bases, but we could have done with normal camps. Only trap used was glow-juice from time to time.
After an hour, everyone with skills harvetsed around 450 to 650 of each meat. I had 1100.
So, right now, rangers ups are: Tracking, Conceal others, Conceal from NPC, Harvest more.
Remove NPC conceal and you kill us. We are already dying from 2 useless skill columns.
What i would do: It is well know rangers give up combat potential for the benefits of beeing rangers (whatever those are). We are not ultimate creature hunters, our sideline combat skills kill creatures. Fix this by:
- move traps and camps in a single line, called Nature Crafting. Add a few eyecandy like taxidermia.
- Make new line, like Ranger Combat, with special moves against creature, like Exploit Weakness 1 and 2. I understand our traps are designed to be special moves, but they need to be crafted, get resisted on high level mobs, and last way to short in my opinion.
NRaas, I want you to know that I just got a big pit in my stomach about /conceal.
Don't even let them tell you it was never planned that way. I will flat out call the Devs a liar on that. I have been involved with this game since the develpment website. Bought it opening day, and have played since day one starting as Scout to get to ranger. I have followed all the scout and ranger forums, updates, ideas, fixes, additions etc. When they first announced /conceal, /areatrack they first said that /conceal would work better then mask scent, AND work against NPC, AND be applied to other players. We all jumped in jubilation at the NPC thing, I remember it very very well. Not in game now, but pretty sure the skill says something about it too.
1) If we are Ultimate Creatures Hunters, then what about all that crap in our profession descriptions about military forces envy our traps, our hunting, our tracking? If that's so then we did they put people and player tracking in? I agree that we should be the Ultimate Creature Hunter. But we are far from it. BH and the like are. Why they ask? Because they put out insane amounts of damage, to everything. Period.
2) In order to be an Ultimate Creature Hunter, we need to be able to hide from Agro NPC. Why they ask? Easy, have a dev try to hunt animals on Lok, Endor or Dath. There are tons of agro NPC there, that they WILL attack you while on your way to the lair, or hunting that Critter. If we can't avoid those NPC, and we aren't master "man" hunters, then how are we supposed to defend ourselves against them? We can't. I lead big hunts to advanced planets all the time. A lot of us are rangers. Those that aren't we put conceal on them so the NPC dont mess with our mass creature killing. And of course the non scouts need it also. And even doing this we still get it broken sometimes and get attacked by NPC. It will be totally NOT FUN to hunt on these planets with out being able to hind from NPC.
3) Logically, someone that can hide from animals using camoflauge and musks, and paints, can EASILY hide from humanoids. It's much harder to hide from animals, that a. have hightened sences b. are usually used to being on the gaurd from predotors. It is very logical that we can hide from hunamoids.
Thanks for your hard work, and I understand we got attention long ago, so others need it. But this is probably the stongest I have felt about something in my professions. I don't hunt NPC in general. 90% of the time I use /conceal to help make my hunting ANIMALS easier, and more fun. And I bet most Ranger do the same.