Ranger Archive

if rangers got stealth i would quickly rejoin the ranks of a ranger, i loved ranger, the only reason i dropped it was cause of PvP, stealth would balance this perfectly.

Xerses

1. Move the fastest in any terrain, hands down. (Burst run should make us as fast as a creature mount)(extra crawl speed is horrible)


2. Forage for, posion/disease curing vegetation, wound healing ect...


3. Track for and locate everything with in the imediate area.


4. Hide from any aggresive enemy with a small chance of being seen.


5. Camp, the Ranger camp should be the ultimate rally point in the wilderness, people in your group should be able to buyAshuttle ticket to your camp. The ultimate pathfinder. (hunting blind would be cool also)


6. Trapping, theRanger should be able tohinder and limit all most any creature.


7. Be very good at fighting creatures, extra defenses combo'd with the trapping line.(something to help with lack of haveing onlyone fighting profession)

These are just my opinions, I was a Ranger for 8 mos.

Best Regards,

Easy-Exanip

Kudos to Fred for his excellent post. I'd love to see something like this implemented but there are a few concerns.

One, what classes get a check against this ability?

Squad Leaders were mentioned but how would that work? Would it be an automatic detection or should they have to use an ability like "Evaluate Environment" or something?

Should other Rangers be able to break the stealth? I kinda think another Master Ranger should be able to break it with an Area Track. That would make Area Track Players more useful and make for some interesting counter stealth techniques.

Second, if we get stealth the other professions are going to need something too. Namely Rifleman (conceal shot) and Smugglers.

Smugglers were mentioned as being the city stealth type, but how could they're stealth be implemented in the same way? In the city, the conditions to become invisible would never be right. And as they are combat related already, the first strike capability would be devastating considering all those Pistoleer/Smuggler/TKA's out there.

Perhaps an argument against Smugglers never intended as stealth characters would work, but not the case for Rifleman. Maybe Conceal shot could work the same, but you couldn't move. Meaning, the rifleman has to get into position normally, with no invisibility, but once he's found his perch he can conceal and as long as he doesn't move he's stays invisible. The conceal is broken after his first attack.

Although that may seem kinda lackluster for a non-Ranger Rifleman its not such a bad deal. He would be more of a defensive sniper while a Ranger/Rifleman would be more offensive. When I play Ghost Recon with more than one sniper on my team this is how we use our snipers. One sneaks up further into enemy territory and supports the main attack (the Ranger/Rifleman) while the other finds a good spot near our base, ready to pick off anyone who wanders to close. Again this ability should probably only be given to Master Rifleman.

Another thought, If you are Master Rifleman/Master Ranger maybe they could "stack" and if you did it right pull off two attacks. The first one breaks your Ranger conceal, but if you remain still you can pull off another shot via conceal shot before you become visible.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head, I'm not even a Rifleman (Master Swordsman/Ranger/Brawler) but I just like to put together a sound argument to propose to the devs.

If we ever get out stealth skills, I'd drop my brawler skills and train my green bar, top tier boxes in the Ranger tree in a heartbeat.

I'm hoping the whole Outdoorsman thing got rid of the Devs making Rangers creature only. This is just another good reason thrown on top of that. I just hope the Devs don't keep us PvE only, especially with the new "GCW is the endgame" attitude. But then the Devs don't always make decisions that make sense and the Star Wars universe was never designed to be realistic.

Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server

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Scarin wrote:
Kudos to Fred for his excellent post. I'd love to see something like this implemented but there are a few concerns.

One, what classes get a check against this ability?

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Other Rangers would be best, followed by SL, then any combat class, then smuggler. All the rest would get a "basic" chance. Only if a SL is leader of a group would the whole group know of the Ranger when one sees him. SL need the love.

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Squad Leaders were mentioned but how would that work? Would it be an automatic detection or should they have to use an ability like "Evaluate Environment" or something?

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There would be a new skill value akin to what they did with "damage mitigation", called Awareness. The higher the value the better the chance of detecting a "cloaked" character. This value would plug into an algorythm that would automatically be enabled. The debate and power adjusting comes in when determining when and how often the algorythm is run or what form it becomes. For example: checked once at normal radar con, again at 64m, again at 15m... or just once every 30sec while in radar con, ect.

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Should other Rangers be able to break the stealth? I kinda think another Master Ranger should be able to break it with an Area Track. That would make Area Track Players more useful and make for some interesting counter stealth techniques.

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That too can be debated and a form of adjusting the power. If this was possible it could cetainly drop the power and cause more to play Ranger. The danger here is tho, a novice detecting a master in ugly "I only got ranger for this" ways akin to our association with BH.

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Second, if we get stealth the other professions are going to need something too. Namely Rifleman (conceal shot) and Smugglers.

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Bah, the "Awarness" skill can do this and I don't want to "give them" anything more or we loose ground on the "Skill Points" equity issue.

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Smugglers were mentioned as being the city stealth type, but how could they're stealth be implemented in the same way? In the city, the conditions to become invisible would never be right. And as they are combat related already, the first strike capability would be devastating considering all those Pistoleer/Smuggler/TKA's out there.

Perhaps an argument against Smugglers never intended as stealth characters would work, but not the case for Rifleman. Maybe Conceal shot could work the same, but you couldn't move. Meaning, the rifleman has to get into position normally, with no invisibility, but once he's found his perch he can conceal and as long as he doesn't move he's stays invisible. The conceal is broken after his first attack.

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Maybe this is just me, but I always wanted Rifleman and Ranger to be complimentory like Pistol and BH are. I had seen that perhaps MR/MRM could use stealth anywhere w/o camo, or allow it in the city as well. But this too can be debated. I saw this combo as the true sniper, MRM is really just a machine gunner with some sniper skills.

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Although that may seem kinda lackluster for a non-Ranger Rifleman its not such a bad deal. He would be more of a defensive sniper while a Ranger/Rifleman would be more offensive. When I play Ghost Recon with more than one sniper on my team this is how we use our snipers. One sneaks up further into enemy territory and supports the main attack (the Ranger/Rifleman) while the other finds a good spot near our base, ready to pick off anyone who wanders to close. Again this ability should probably only be given to Master Rifleman.

Another thought, If you are Master Rifleman/Master Ranger maybe they could "stack" and if you did it right pull off two attacks. The first one breaks your Ranger conceal, but if you remain still you can pull off another shot via conceal shot before you become visible.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head, I'm not even a Rifleman (Master Swordsman/Ranger/Brawler) but I just like to put together a sound argument to propose to the devs.

If we ever get out stealth skills, I'd drop my brawler skills and train my green bar, top tier boxes in the Ranger tree in a heartbeat.

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Not too shabby ideas there. If this gets implimented tho, I would certainly HOPE that all this gets tested and adjusted before it hits live servers. It's a lot of tweaking to do and balance. With all the variables invovled we must not let it be a paper tiger or force everyone to be a ranger.

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Fred_Skinner wrote:
There would be a new skill value akin to what they did with "damage mitigation", called Awareness. The higher the value the better the chance of detecting a "cloaked" character. This value would plug into an algorythm that would automatically be enabled. The debate and power adjusting comes in when determining when and how often the algorythm is run or what form it becomes. For example: checked once at normal radar con, again at 64m, again at 15m... or just once every 30sec while in radar con, ect.

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Ok, I've been considering this for a few days and I think I've come to the conclusion that basing a stealth proposal on an awareness ability is not the way to go. I've been trying to organize my thoughts to explain why, yet still offer some ideas if an awareness check is a part of the plan. So here goes...

I think its a safe bet to assume there already is an awareness system for creatures. In my observation, mask scent and conceal break for more often on high level mobs than lower ones. For npc's I would guess there is one too, but I'm not sure. Conceal is too unreliable for me to tell whether certain npcs break conceal more often than others. For players however, we have no clue because there is nothing (i.e stealth) that tests it. So, concerning our stealth argument, let's consider the possibilities...

It's possible there is already an awareness system in place for players, but we are unaware of it, or its not used right now. If that's the case, then a stealth proposal based on awareness checks may have a chance to go over well with the devs. The current system could be used or re-worked to perform checks much like in Fred's example.

But, it's also quite possible (and my guess) that there is no such awareness skill for players. Considering the devs stated position against player stealth, it seems unlikely to me that they would have put anything like that in place. If so, than any stealth system that requires a new awareness skill is likely to require a lot of programming work from the devs. If we could convince them it's worth it they might go for it, but I personally think we'd have a better chance without it.

Now, while I think it might be wishful thinking, let me say I would love to see an awareness skill. There are similar concepts in other games and I've thought of it many times in SWG. Ideally, the skill would be dynamic and effected directly by the players actions, just how stealth is in many games. Crafting, foraging, healing, combat etc. and even running around would reduce the players awareness level, while meditating or laying still and prone would increase it to the maximum for that players skill level.

If it was implemented, one problem is determining who gets higher awareness bonuses and who doesn't. It seems the combat classes would be much more susceptable to stealth attacks than others, (don't know about you guys but I'm not planning to sneak up on and terrorize entertainers) but are they really justified in having a higher awareness? I think a Pikeman would not really have any higher awareness of his surroundings than an artisan out on a survey. If anything, awareness bonuses should probably be restricted to the scout classes, namely the elites, BH, SL and of course Rangers.

I apologize for my randomness and realize that was a crap to read at once, but I hope there was something in there that you can extract and offer of your own opinions about. Lets keep the conversation going guys...

I'm not sure I made this clear, but I was extending the effects that our camo has on MOBs in PvP, and as such would use a similar system. If "Awareness" is already there, which I suspect it is, then we would use that. Therefor wewould know then after establishing that of a system that was removed. I don't mearly mean to turn it on, hence bringing back it's reason for removal but to adjust it to the sytem I have mentioned here. Basically, PvE and PvPare asymetric, and I would like to return to some symmetry.

Also remember the detection method is an algorythm which has input conditions as your skill and their awarness, the conditions under which you are attempting to "sneak" in and output of pass/fail. It should not be a flat skill vs skill roll and it should not be so complex that the server lags on each check.

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Scarin wrote:

It's possible there is already an awareness system in place for players, but we are unaware of it, or its not used right now. If that's the case, then a stealth proposal based on awareness checks may have a chance to go over well with the devs. The current system could be used or re-worked to perform checks much like in Fred's example.

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/vote stealth!

I think stealth would give a whole new depth to PvP. Plan a raid in advance and you could get strike squads in place before the battle starts. A squad of Ranger riflemen on a hill or with direct line of sight to the battlefield could be a devestating first strike for example. Actually any concealed squad with a concentration on one type of attack could be a devestating first strike!

I think this is a great idea - it could even tempt me into trying PvP.

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Fobik wrote:

First Question, WHY?

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To bring the stealth effect from PvE into PvP and giving us value in PvP that is in line with our profession.

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If it is not a combat thing (delay for combat when going unstealthed....why? What "information" ar eyou going to gather? How many people are at a base? I can drive my speeder in and see that and take a death..Entertainers are doing that ATM. So again Why? Oh..I know..you are going to sneak in on a guild meeting to see if they are talking about you behind your back!

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Target a PC and give the WP out on E-Mail, the group is surrounded in minutes and they never know. Observe the moment the CM is exposed and discover who that is, ect. Trust me, there are increadable advantages you have not thought of. Consider that many teams use Teamspeak for this. If they see the Entertainer doing a lemming you get cursory info that might not be usefull. If you are watching them prep over an extended period and they think that they are not being observed it adds a whole new demention. Never mind the fact that inserting someone that is detected alerts them to possible action.

The delay thing was not my idea, btw, and I feel it would reduce the power of the skill too much.

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I have played in one MMROPG that had stealth working to a level that was "adequate". The theory behind it was you moved close enough unseen to get ONE attack and prayed to Yoda it was enough. That was it. It is obvious that you cannot allow stealth to become a part of an attack template or you will have groups of ranger Hvy Swordsmen sneaking up on bases and obliterating turrets.

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Yes you can and here is why: The factors to how easy this can be adjusted, andthe methodcan be adjusted such that you do not want to stay around the area too long. This is the balance feature I explained earlier.This only effects what the players see on thier respective radars. It has no other effect:turrets work the same way.

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And you want to sneack through creatures? All you have to do is get on your swoop and drive through...you will not get killed. I see NO bonus from this skill. The suggestions that are right for the profession are the ones you turned down and were mentioned earlier.

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We already get this for creatures, like I said, I want it for players too. This skill is certainly usefull for me, a rifleman, prone using /concealshot. In fact, HS3 is probably handier as it takes quite some time before I'm seen. Target is usually dead first. Can't do that w/o /conceal.

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1. Move the fastest in any terrain, hands down. (Burst run should make us as fast as a creature mount)(extra crawl speed is horrible)
   
2. Forage for, posion/disease curing vegetation, wound healing ect...
   
3. Track for and locate everything with in the imediate area.
   
4. Hide from any aggresive enemy with a small chance of being seen.
   
5. Camp, the Ranger camp should be the ultimate rally point in the wilderness, people in your group should be able to buyAshuttle ticket to your camp. The ultimate pathfinder. (hunting blind would be cool also)
   
6. Trapping, theRanger should be able tohinder and limit all most any creature.
   
7. Be very good at fighting creatures, extra defenses combo'd with the trapping line.(something to help with lack of haveing onlyone fighting profession)

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1. ok.


2. I wanted camps to make poision/desease burn away in a minute or 2. Same page here, essentually


3. They just need to fix the /areatrack for the dynamic spawns. I would like /track to force a spawn too.


4. and I would like to hide from PC's. We got that from critters already.


5. Did not mean to drop the camp revampfor stealth. I want it in addition. also: see 2


6. yep


7. yep

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I want the other stuff too, but the other stuff, providing we get it all, does not justify giving up 140 skill points in my humble opinion.

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Number 2 is the biggest step. You NEED to cure poision if you are a ranger. Make it JUST like the CM skill but not ranged.

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You spoke on the scouting bonus. 17 vs 170. No matter what it is it is out of proportion as we speak. A master scout sould get 30% harvest when compared to a master ranger.

I have never seen where the creature to hit bonus has helped when hunting. You need to make this skill worthwhile. Here is my point

Master ranger and basically TKM. What does Master Ranger give to this player that a regular TKM with master scout does not have? A SAMLL harvest bonus ...you have dizzy attacks that make up for sonic pulse. Who cares about camp healing with meditate? Master Ranger is useless except to harvest.

My suggestion to all of this is as follows.

You stated that everything has its oppisite..ie..you conteract this play with this play. Well when we sit back the NUKE of SWG is the Combat Medic. The Combat Medic has almost no chance of missing if they are master with good poisions. The key to making a Ranger viable is to allow a Master Ranger to heal poision and to DISRUPT the CM attacks. I dont know HOW you would want to do this (Ghay to make it an applique like cameoflauge). This would

1. Negate the nuke effect of CM

2. Make Ranger PvP certified in a HUGE way

3. Keep it from overpowering the template..you would ONLY be able to hurt CM and maybe Drs ranged attacks.

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I dont know..I say stealth has NEVER worked in any mmropg properly..and NO way it will here because stealth was a way to get past "magic" pure and simple..and as we all know magic is not in SWG..only Jedi.

Love

Glenda

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I don't understand this statement, I know of UO and AO that had this, and they do fine. This is already in the game, just not against PC's. All I wanted is to finally extend it to PC's, in a way that is balanced. Yes is can be

First Question, WHY?

If it is not a combat thing (delay for combat when going unstealthed....why? What "information" ar eyou going to gather? How many people are at a base? I can drive my speeder in and see that and take a death..Entertainers are doing that ATM. So again Why? Oh..I know..you are going to sneak in on a guild meeting to see if they are talking about you behind your back! I have played in one MMROPG that had stealth working to a level that was "adequate". The theory behind it was you moved close enough unseen to get ONE attack and prayed to Yoda it was enough. That was it. It is obvious that you cannot allow stealth to become a part of an attack template or you will have groups of ranger Hvy Swordsmen sneaking up on bases and obliterating turrets. And you want to sneack through creatures? All you have to do is get on your swoop and drive through...you will not get killed. I see NO bonus from this skill. The suggestions that are right for the profession are the ones you turned down and were mentioned earlier.

1. Move the fastest in any terrain, hands down. (Burst run should make us as fast as a creature mount)(extra crawl speed is horrible)
   
2. Forage for, posion/disease curing vegetation, wound healing ect...
   
3. Track for and locate everything with in the imediate area.
   
4. Hide from any aggresive enemy with a small chance of being seen.
   
5. Camp, the Ranger camp should be the ultimate rally point in the wilderness, people in your group should be able to buyAshuttle ticket to your camp. The ultimate pathfinder. (hunting blind would be cool also)
   
6. Trapping, theRanger should be able tohinder and limit all most any creature.
   
7. Be very good at fighting creatures, extra defenses combo'd with the trapping line.(something to help with lack of haveing onlyone fighting profession)