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Thread: STEALTH The post you have all been waiting for (or dreading) ...

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Fobik

Wed May 19, 2004 4:30 pm

Wow..a complete reply..I am most impressed Fred!! Thank You !!!

To bring the stealth effect from PvE into PvP and giving us value in PvP that is in line with our profession.

I still say a person on a swoop can do this just as effectively and basically never die and are always detected. I only say this to bring up the concern of Ganking. Ganking is the art of sneaking up on someone and killing them with success 70% of the time of better. My example

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We already get this for creatures, like I said, I want it for players too. This skill is certainly usefull for me, a rifleman, prone using /concealshot. In fact, HS3 is probably handier as it takes quite some time before I'm seen. Target is usually dead first. Can't do that w/o /conceal.

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So you will have rifleman rangers in pvp that cannot be seen. I might be wrong but Ican see 8 people as Ranger Rifle in Theed waiting in town conceal and stealth and camo waiting for the recruiter to make someone overt..does awareness go up in a city?. What would be the fix here..no stealth in the city??

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Or like I said, make the camp usefull again.

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Well make sure you find a way to prevent a ranger from placing a camp and people fighting critters in it and the ranger not engaging so as the camp stays for the combat.(auto heal poision)(I have not seen the difference in healing in a camp if in combat or not)..that would undermine the difficulty of some critters majorly..Endor and Dath comes to mind.

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It was suggested that we were supposed to be the foil for CH, not CM. When they allow us to trap pets that may happen.Foiling CMwould be a streatch, imho. Doctor should be that.

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K we get to sneak up on them and they get to call pets......We can spy on them...We can get a lot of rangers together and jump a group. I guess if you can handle the complaining I can handle the skill

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All I wanted is to finally extend it to PC's, in a way that is balanced.

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I would love that. It WILL be the most powerful skill in game if it works even 1/2 the time. I can hear the sound of Overt crafters howling with dismay as we speak.

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And to the three classes of chcters.... Combat skills in general are based into 3 categories...Melee...Ranged...and magic (Magic can be crafted stims like Docs use or magic like used in other MMOs played) An example of this from other games as in magic would be the sorcerer that would make a target easier to hit with damage or the enchanter that would make the weapon hit harder or faster (The latter is not really in SWG but the latter would be a SL or a crafter making powerups). A huge portion og MMO play in my experience is how to get around magic. The only "Magic" in this game is crafted. Except the Jedi's ability to use the Force. This third category "Magic" is very very very small portion of SWG combat. placing Stealth....basically the most powerful magic skill of all..into a game with very little magic to begin with would definatley make a huge powershift in the game just in the fact that it is a part of a category that has very little weight when compared to melee and ranged damage. Just a caution I guess because this skill was tried in AC1 and it was removed almost immediately because the people who leveled it were too powerful ESPECIALLY in huge group conflicts. It was nothing but a stream of posts of people complaining they were level 102 and a level 50 Theif just capped them....8 times in a row...because of their....SUPERIOR RUN SPEED ie run away ..restealth..repeat until it works and you kill the person....wash rinse repeat and grief all you want...dangerous skill but a good reward for us Rangers since day 1.

Thank you for your attention

Dobieg

Thu May 27, 2004 4:10 am

No Flames here....sounds like a great idea..however...with no slight to your thought, I (being an x-ranger for the last 2 months....but at heart still am, which is why I still read this forum) figure if something as thorough and wlel thought out as the Outdoorsman hasn't taken hold of the Dev's by now...a well-read, quality post such as yours will have a similar effect. To me, Ranger has become less of a potential profession, and more of a playing style and way of IC life.

Diobe Soudow

Kettemoor Ranger*

Antarian Ranger for life

Diobe Soudow
Bri - SPY
"Ahhhh...Venomous Ploy....very dangerous. You go first...."
/smoke

Rebelcapt

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:30 am

Fobik wrote:

Just a caution I guess because this skill was tried in AC1 and it was removed almost immediately because the people who leveled it were too powerful ESPECIALLY in huge group conflicts. It was nothing but a stream of posts of people complaining they were level 102 and a level 50 Theif just capped them....8 times in a row...because of their....SUPERIOR RUN SPEED ie run away ..restealth..repeat until it works and you kill the person....wash rinse repeat and grief all you want...dangerous skill but a good reward for us Rangers since day 1.

Well an easy way to prevent this is give it to master rangers only, thiswould make it so people who had it wouldnt have the skill points to have anything but one other combat profession.

Asonova Se'ok

Master Ranger/Master Pistoleer

Major, Imperial Army

RSF: Master Pilot

RATGWNIWNU

The truth about "Leetspeak"

Hec

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:03 am

I have not read all the post on this tread, so i dont know if this has been said. But the devs at FF said that to apply this is almost imposible because of the technology used and the way the game works. And if that they did it it may be cause of great lag in servers, becuase of the feedback needed for checks to see who will be affected by the "stealth" status and who wont. and who can see the concealed player and who cant.

Hec Losame
ALM
Hunter for hire (Do not work for Imps)

Fred_Skinner

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:33 am

Hec wrote:

I have not read all the post on this tread, so i dont know if this has been said. But the devs at FF said that to apply this is almost imposible because of the technology used and the way the game works. And if that they did it it may be cause of great lag in servers, becuase of the feedback needed for checks to see who will be affected by the "stealth" status and who wont. and who can see the concealed player and who cant.

nope, this gets to be in that part of the routine, on the server, that dictates what objects get sent to the client if in 128m range. Why, for example, would this function notbe a problem, where having even less data to pass would be a problem? They are not thinking, I humbly submit, effeciently.

What you do is add to the routine that sends objects a 1) check if object is another player and 2) if player, does it qualify for stealth. I KNOW you are not sent ALL objects on the server at onceso this routine/function exists, it has to!

There is also checks, depending on the object, for closer distances. How else would a critter not see you and does see your unhidden friend? These too, exist.

All I ask here, is to add those routines for the critters AI switch to the players send/no-send object switch such that the object is sent conditionally on more factors then just distance (128m). Could even be hot-fixed, although that assumes a direct copy of the routine/functions from critters and no balance testing. We should test and tweek for balance first.

Frederick Skinner
Antarian Ranger, Ranger(0030), Master Rifleman, CH(4214)
Ranger is not a profession. It's a lifestyle.

Kiryoku

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:52 pm

mom: hey, kago.. take out the garbage would you?

kago: i would, but there is an issue with the dumpster that makes it impossible for me to --

mom: /wookieeroar

kago: doing it!!

kind of reminds me of this...

fred: give us stealth.

devs: sorry, it is technically impossible.

fred: no it isn't, you see.. if you <technical jargon>, to the <technical jargon> you'll get a beneficial <technical jargon> and then everyone is happy... what's wrong with you?

devs: umm... wow...

kago

-------------------------------------------------------

Skunkworks Ship Designs and Body Shop

A 10/15/12/17/10/10/17 point FS Shipwright (ridiculous, no?).

Custom Starship Components

(5708, 467) Valinor, Dantooine

Fred_Skinner

Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:57 am

Frederick Skinner
Antarian Ranger, Ranger(0030), Master Rifleman, CH(4214)
Ranger is not a profession. It's a lifestyle.

Seraph00X

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:26 am

what if the "stealth" skill was available only to master rangers and was checked reasonably frequently and had say a X% chance of being broken based on distance from the checker and the checkee if you get my meaning? example: a master ranger has a 10% chance of detection at 50m, but at 20m he has a 30% chance of being detected, and say at something ridiculous like 5m he has a 95% chance of detection. I'm sure it could be made into a relatively simple exponential equation.

cheers-
Serje Misre, Master Ranger, Kauri
Pas Ok'Lya, master schleper, Test Center

"Even though the Old Republic didn't work, I'd rather have a government run by beuraucrats than run by a dictator willing to destroy an entire planet in order to flush out a handful of dissidents."

Nemo0

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:43 am

Seraph00X wrote:
what if the "stealth" skill was available only to master rangers and was checked reasonably frequently and had say a X% chance of being broken based on distance from the checker and the checkee if you get my meaning? example: a master ranger has a 10% chance of detection at 50m, but at 20m he has a 30% chance of being detected, and say at something ridiculous like 5m he has a 95% chance of detection. I'm sure it could be made into a relatively simple exponential equation.

Checking too often puts a strain on the servers. I'd say the maskscent/camo equations might be the best option (affected by movement speed, posture, distance, etc) checked slightly more frequently.

Lythender Nirou
Crazy Bothan

Seraph00X

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:47 am

Nemo0 wrote:

Seraph00X wrote:
what if the "stealth" skill was available only to master rangers and was checked reasonably frequently and had say a X% chance of being broken based on distance from the checker and the checkee if you get my meaning? example: a master ranger has a 10% chance of detection at 50m, but at 20m he has a 30% chance of being detected, and say at something ridiculous like 5m he has a 95% chance of detection. I'm sure it could be made into a relatively simple exponential equation.

Checking too often puts a strain on the servers. I'd say the maskscent/camo equations might be the best option (affected by movement speed, posture, distance, etc) checked slightly more frequently.

good point.

cheers-
Serje Misre, Master Ranger, Kauri
Pas Ok'Lya, master schleper, Test Center

"Even though the Old Republic didn't work, I'd rather have a government run by beuraucrats than run by a dictator willing to destroy an entire planet in order to flush out a handful of dissidents."

blackplastick

Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:54 am

For 140 skill points we should be able to stealth standing/running/dancing/yelling and not be detectable until we are right in front of an enemy. If this is the only pvp skill ranger gets then it better be damn worth 140 points. Other than the PVP facet, ranger is still my favorite class. I had the most fun with it out of all of them. Sure it has its (more than fair share) of problems and desperately needs an overhaul but the basic ranger is really fun to play. I want to add however that ranger skills (camo) are GREAT for getting to places others cant get to (rancor cave piles, geo lab etc etc). I really wish they would do something about fishing. Fishing/foraging and trapping were the worst disappointments for me about ranger. I only used trapping to get to master then never bothered again.

I might come back anyway.

Ahh I forgot to mention, I played DAOC for quite some time as an assassin, and stealth was a LOT of fun. The thing is with DAOC stealthers, you have little armor, weak hit points, and dont attack for sh*t, but you get to stealth and you get HUGE damage for backstab or or "frontstab" (forgot the name for it, arterial slash or something). The thing is that you had to navigate your way either to the front or the back of your target to use these(unless you are ranger but using bows with stealth was much the same). Once you attack you are unstealthed. While stealthed you move very slow. If you got too close to somebody they would probably see you and attack you. Until attacked you would stay stealthed. If somebody DID see you they were able to tab target you until you got far enough away that they didnt see you. After unstealthing there is a timer of 20-30 seconds or so before you can restealth. People with a higher level of stealth than you were able to see you from farther away than those lower than you. There is also a "talent" you can buy with talent points tht allows you to see stealth better. Its been a while since I played so a lot of this may have changed.

Message Edited by blackplastick on 06-17-2004 07:01 AM

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Rooks

Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:04 am

I am sure this has already been covered and I havent read the entire thread so, forgive me if I am repeating someone else's point.

I believe Stealth should be a Master Ranger only ability and it simply makes us invisible on Radar.

The Majority of people use their radar or in-city map only and rarely even watch who or what goes by them.

How many times have you been in a crowded starport and everyone 30m away are fuzzed out?

IF Master Rangers are NOT on the radar, their PVP usefullness is GOLDEN.

In PVP if you do not see that Red Dot on the radar, you don't worry about anything.

A Master Ranger should be literally "Off the Radar" with Stealth.

Would make us Excellent Scouts to spy out positions.

A group of Master Rangers could launch an attack and no one would see it coming.

Just a simpler version of your idea and hopefully one that the Devs CAN make work, as oppossed to them saying it is too hard or complex.

For 140 Skill points, we should be AS tough as BHs and Commandoes in SOME respect.

"Ranger is a Lifestyle, not a Profession"

Message Edited by Rooks on 06-19-2004 08:08 AM

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Rooks (the non-famous one)
Rooks - Master Ranger / Master Creature Handler
"Ranger is a Lifestyle, not a Profession"
Veteran of the Great Melon Nerf War of '03
An Amatuer built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic
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Kiith

Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:01 am

Shadowbane has something similar to this idea. I played a Scout during my time there and it was a lot of fun. They also had assassin characters that had the stealth skill which allowed a "backstab" move which was very powerful especially in 1 on 1 pvp. The game itself had many problems, but the Scout/Ranger type player was an intregal part of the game.

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