Ranger Archive
Thread: Harvesting changes to come
Owen-Lars
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:06 am
#53
DarmokVtS Wrote:
"As far as I see this is still the case here, last time I checked a master ranger's advantage above a novice scout was more than just 20%"
Its is and still is. I never said it wasnt.
What i was saying is that if a scout is in group and a master ranger is solo the difference between their harvesting yeild should stay the same as if they were both solo (I.e. novice scouts should get no 'bonus' for being in group in regards to harvesting).
You should have to invest in order to get bonuses.
As for the effect of this. It will clearly reduce the market price of organics. Not realy a bad thing if its because rangers can harvest more from a creature and therefore provide more for less, reducing trade prices. Although this isnt what is happening. Its a player wide function, everyone will be harvesting 20% more in groups, i see this as a major bad point and something im against.
The problem was groups were unattractive because of the harvesting penalty. Solve this by removing the penalty not by dishing out bonuses what would go an amazing legnth to giving a class a role in groups.
Get rid of the penalty, give the bonuses to the people whoinvest the skill points.
darmokVtS
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:15 am
#54
Owen-Lars wrote:
What i was saying is that if a scout is in group and a master ranger is solo the difference between their harvesting yeild should stay the same as if they were both solo (I.e. novice scouts should get no 'bonus' for being in group in regards to harvesting).
Well. I doubt we will get to an agreement on this position.
In my book it's the ranger's own fault that his advantage gets lowered in the scenario "novice scout is grouped, master ranger is not". Get a group, old situation restored, problem solved
.
Owen-Lars
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:21 am
#55
Dont give scouts a bonus to harvest in groups or make rangers give the harvesting boost.......... Problem solved.
Makes no difference if you are solo or grouped then a ranger has the choice to either group and bring something to he group or opt out and hunt safe in the knowledge that only rangers can give the boosts to harvesting because of their skill levels.
Kiryoku
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:24 am
#56
word...
Owen-Lars wrote:
Dont give scouts a bonus to harvest in groups or make rangers give the harvesting boost.......... Problem solved.
Owen-Lars
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:38 am
#57
Paks Wrote:
"We can guess why, but that is not the same. This must be most frustrating for the Corrs and Glowies. I don't envy you guys"
Hehe dont even get me started
There is still time to change it though and im not letting up on this, i see penalty removal as a possitive step but game wide group harvesting bonuses as a bad idea. I would rather see group bonuses branch off into other areas, not into harvesting.
AragornSoS
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:39 am
#58
darmokVtS wrote:
Well. I doubt we will get to an agreement on this position.
In my book it's the ranger's own fault that his advantage gets lowered in the scenario "novice scout is grouped, master ranger is not". Get a group, old situation restored, problem solved
I think you're missing Owen's point. It's not the "To group or not to group", it's the fact that you are giving a +20 bonus to anyone who has very few skill points invested. Let me paint a different picture...
I, like many of us, have Novice Medic. This means I can StimB myself when the going gets really rough, and it means I'll shortly have a Bacta tank for my house after I finish the "reward" part of the Phase 4 healer quest tonight. Novice Medic means I have what, Med Use 5, which limits me to StimBs and B woundpacks- generally good enough for me for a quick heal after a tough fight. Now, what if simply grouping with anyone else who ALSO had novice medic meant I got a +20 or so to things like healing and wound treatment or med use? Don't you think there would be a rather large outcry from those who invested points in mastering medic and doc if I could suddenly do a LOT more medic-type functions without actually putting any points into anything beyond Novice Medic? It's not a "grouping" issue as much as it is a "giving a fairly sizable bonus to people who've done absolutely nothing to earn it" issue. If I want that level of healing ability and med use, I should have to invest skill points to learn it. I shouldn't get it simply because I choose to group with someone - and if this was exactly like the harvest bonus, I woulnd't even need to group with anyone else having ANY doc skills, I'd just need to have Novice Medic and group with anyone.
I would wholeheartedly agree that removing the PENALTY from harvesting when grouped is absolutely a good thing. It'll encourage grouping, it'll make it a lot easier on those of us who do want to occassionally take out that noob scout in the guild to show them the right way to do things and no worry about what we harvest, it'll allow for a lot more player interaction that was previously avoided strictly due to the harvest penalty.
I hate the fact that simply the act of grouping with ANYONE, whether they have ANY scout or ranger skills or not, leads to such a huge bonus in harvest. There is no rationale, in game or in the real world, for how grouping with a dancer or a tailor or even a combat professional (not a hunter) would in any way increase what you could harvest from a kill. HOWEVER... as has already been pointed out, it IS easy to explain how grouping with, and watching / emulating / learning from a Scout or Ranger who has taken time to MASTER various techniques COULD help someone harvest more when grouped with that Scout or Ranger. Whether you make it a +10 / +20 bonus in the Master boxes (Scout / Ranger) or split it out even more along the hunting trees and the master boxes, either way at least makes sense and can be justified in some way. Granting bonuses to folks with nothing more than Novice Scout is just plain wrong.
You want to encourage grouping more to hunt, do away with the penalty, but don't provide any bonus solely due to the act of grouping itself.
You want to get a BONUS to your harvest when you hunt, you learn more in (or master) Scout or Ranger, and make it a group bonus only for Master Ranger (or a smaller one with a Master Scout).
Almagill
Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:52 am
#59
I had been about to tear into somebody on the TC forum about how unfair this patch is on us because unscrupulous combat stackers will be able to hammer their way through way more than we can, especially in relation to the SP investment.
I decided to do a bit of math beforehand thought, and now am a bit confused.
Scout
Novice Scout: SP 15, harvest +15. Current grpd. 9 New grouped 18
Scout 0040: SP 29, harvest +50 Current grpd. 30 New grouped 60
Master Scout: SP 77, harvest +55 Current grpd. 33 New grouped 66
Ranger
Novice Ranger: SP 83, harvest +60 Current grpd. 36 New grouped 72
Ranger 0040: SP 97, harvest +95 Current grpd. 57 New grouped 114
Master Ranger: SP 140, harvest +105 Current grpd. 63 New grouped 136
Current grouped is the harvest modifier less 40%
New grouped is harvest modifier plus 20%
Going on this basis, in a group, a MR will be pulling in just over twice what a MS would, for the same 1SP:1pt harvest mod.
Compared to some combat stacker with only 0040 scout we'd get slightly more than twice the harvest (though the speed they can kill at is debatable. If rifles is too slow perhaps we're blaming people for 'our choice' of weapon)
Y'know, looking at the figures, I'm not sure we ARE being that hard done by.
(Remember these are just figures based on the profession templates and that a ranger should be able to select the best form of attack for their group based on enhanced creature knowledge, there will be variations based on where the spawn is, etc.)
Once the frog tester is up, what about getting a group of people together with a selection of skills (as listed in the above table) killing some big critters and comparing the actual harvests off the same beast?
I decided to do a bit of math beforehand thought, and now am a bit confused.
Scout
Novice Scout: SP 15, harvest +15. Current grpd. 9 New grouped 18
Scout 0040: SP 29, harvest +50 Current grpd. 30 New grouped 60
Master Scout: SP 77, harvest +55 Current grpd. 33 New grouped 66
Ranger
Novice Ranger: SP 83, harvest +60 Current grpd. 36 New grouped 72
Ranger 0040: SP 97, harvest +95 Current grpd. 57 New grouped 114
Master Ranger: SP 140, harvest +105 Current grpd. 63 New grouped 136
Current grouped is the harvest modifier less 40%
New grouped is harvest modifier plus 20%
Going on this basis, in a group, a MR will be pulling in just over twice what a MS would, for the same 1SP:1pt harvest mod.
Compared to some combat stacker with only 0040 scout we'd get slightly more than twice the harvest (though the speed they can kill at is debatable. If rifles is too slow perhaps we're blaming people for 'our choice' of weapon)
Y'know, looking at the figures, I'm not sure we ARE being that hard done by.
(Remember these are just figures based on the profession templates and that a ranger should be able to select the best form of attack for their group based on enhanced creature knowledge, there will be variations based on where the spawn is, etc.)
Once the frog tester is up, what about getting a group of people together with a selection of skills (as listed in the above table) killing some big critters and comparing the actual harvests off the same beast?
Almagill
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:15 am
#60
AragornSoS wrote:I, like many of us, have Novice Medic. This means I can StimB myself when the going gets really rough, and it means I'll shortly have a Bacta tank for my house after I finish the "reward" part of the Phase 4 healer quest tonight. Novice Medic means I have what, Med Use 5, which limits me to StimBs and B woundpacks - generally good enough for me for a quick heal after a tough fight. Now, what if simply grouping with anyone else who ALSO had novice medic meant I got a +20 or so to things like healing and wound treatment or med use?
"The penalty for harvesting while in a group has been removed and replaced with a 20% harvesting bonus when harvesting while in a group."
I'm reading this as a 20% increase to harvesting, not an increase of 20 to harvesting.
In your analogy, the novice medic would get 10% of their 5pts med use, or an extra 1 point. Not an increase to 25. Hardly the grounds for a screamfest from the docs and medics.
If it IS a straight addition of 20points to the harvest mod, thats madness, if it's a % increase across the board those with small mods benefit less than those of us with huge mods. As it should be.
What we need to do is get the removal of the group penalty seperated from the addition of the harvest bonus for grouping.
So, everyone gets rid of the group penalty, but only at Master Scout and Master ranger do you get an additional 10% when grouped. This gives an incentive to Master, everyone gets an effective increase in harvest anyway, but those who invest the most get the most.
Vorpaks
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:50 am
#61
Almagill wrote:
Once the frog tester is up, what about getting a group of people together with a selection of skills (as listed in the above table) killing some big critters and comparing the actual harvests off the same beast?
Sounds like fun! I'm in!
Almagill
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:54 am
#62
Vorpaks wrote:
Almagill wrote:
Once the frog tester is up, what about getting a group of people together with a selection of skills (as listed in the above table) killing some big critters and comparing the actual harvests off the same beast?
Sounds like fun! I'm in!
I'd probably be able to arrange something on TC-Prime, but to be honest, I'm a bit embarrassed taking my pathetic weapons skills and asking half a dozen leet combat types to come kill stuff for me and some newb scout/rangers to harvest.
Even though I know they would, lol.
frightwig
Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:16 pm
#63
Ken, how did you even get a group harvest bonus on TC? 
I'm 0020 and I didn't seem to get any group bonus Tuesday evening or Wednesday. I was still suffereing from the -40% penalty, no matter how many different people I tried grouping with.
Also, Thortac, Isrep and I tried to test out the bonus near the ranger lodge in SS and we were all seeing the 40% penalty, but no bonus. All of us were ranger.
From what we could tell, it's not currently working correctly on TC
We tested this off several creatures from the same lair, and isrep and I both had -40% harvest when grouped. I grouped many times with random people on Naboo, Tat and Dantooine, and never saw any kind of boost.
I'm 0020 and I didn't seem to get any group bonus Tuesday evening or Wednesday. I was still suffereing from the -40% penalty, no matter how many different people I tried grouping with.
Also, Thortac, Isrep and I tried to test out the bonus near the ranger lodge in SS and we were all seeing the 40% penalty, but no bonus. All of us were ranger.
From what we could tell, it's not currently working correctly on TC
We tested this off several creatures from the same lair, and isrep and I both had -40% harvest when grouped. I grouped many times with random people on Naboo, Tat and Dantooine, and never saw any kind of boost.
Message Edited by frightwig on 02-16-2005 02:18 PM
ShyGirl
Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:17 pm
#64
I guess that's okay, it just means that Hunting Rangerswill have to find other sources of income as theorganics marketwill devaluatedue to the increasedsupply of it in the market
daslama wrote:
The penalty for harvesting while in a group has been removed and replaced with a 20% harvesting bonus when harvesting while in a group.
Seeing the complete lack of consideration for us Rangers within the Design team, I am hopeful that something great is planned ahead for us. Either that, or I will log in one day to experience that Ranger has been completely removed as a profession 
(/sarcasm off)
(/sarcasm off)Needless to say, even though I am a little bit sarcastic, I remain hopeful... and if "$h17" happens, I still have you guys, a great bunch of people, to share my time with 
Vorpaks
Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:51 pm
#65
ShyGirl wrote: I guess that's okay, it just means that Hunting Rangerswill have to find other sources of income as theorganics marketwill devaluatedue to the increasedsupply of it in the market
Remember that you will be selling more as well. The price may go down, but you will be selling about 20% more of it for the same amount of time spent harvesting, which may make up the margin a bit. Also I strongly believe that a lot of prices will remain high due to W-T-H (Willingness to Hunt). Tatooine Avian for example, will always cost a bundle.
