Ranger Archive
Thread: The trap crafting debate is resolved :).
I was going to reply and pile on but whats the point.
Apparently the dev team has already settled this question so why bother?
Maxanto wrote:
Can't take something away from someone that never had it in the first place.
BaneShee wrote:
I understand the way the WS community feels about this. Currently Scouts and Rangersmake our own traps/grenades that effect only creatures. CurrentlyWS makes minesthat should be able to be effective against NPC and Players. Now along comes the revamp and Rangers can now make mines/traps that should be effective against NPC's and Players. This takes something away from the WS and its really no different than the way the Ranger community has felt in the past when all our abilities were given to other professions.
Now the only thing that the devs can do at this point is to remove the WS mines from the game because they are useless or make then as effective as Ranger traps/mines which will cause an uproar in the Ranger community because we are no longer unique.
Until the changes get on TC, we don't actually know that the Ranger mines will be "better".
Another thought-I was unaware that the WS folks could craft mines; one would hope that the devs would be more aware of this fact than I was, and would balance their mines appropriately.
A further thought-as the WS folks can craft mines, and we can use mines, would it not make some sense to be able to use "Conceal Device" on those as well?
Just a couple thoughts from someone who is admittedly not-in-the-know.
Maxanto wrote:
DaveG wrote:
maigy wrote:
I think the line is when non-weaponsmiths start crafting munitions/explosives
Maxanto wrote:
And further more... Should weaponsmiths make scout traps, what about lightsabers? When does that line of logic end?
One more thing I think you're missing - I presume the mines you make can be used by anyone (if I'm wrong, forgive me, I didn't even know there were mines in the game already until I read your post - just shows how popular they are!). However, the mines that Rangers make, will only be usable by Rangers.
Rangers will not be able to produce munitions for the whole population, only for themselves. You are arguing about loosing something you never had. Like Phenix said, Rangers are a minority of the population, and I dare say we still will be once the novelty of the revamp wears off.
Very well put! QFE. Also Weaponsmith already has how many craftable items in the game? Now they want more? Thats just greed 100%
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
Just a question for our visitor.
If the HX2 mine had instead been called the HX2 boobytrap would you still be here complaining about this issue?
In effect that is what this is, a booby trap that can be command detonated, timer, or bio-sensor triggered.
So in RL its nothing more than an IED. I can use a hand held detonator to set off the explosive or I could use a Cell phone, It could be as simple as a plastic spoon tied to a wire preventing the device from firing, waiting for a victim to trip the trigger. Maybe I get creative and use some sticks and dig a hole in the ground creating a man trap impaling my victim. Or maybe I hang a big log in the tree and use a rope to trigger the trap.
Its nothing more than a name for a device to do all of the above within the limits of this game. Its not very realistic to think the Devs can or will create every possible type of trap to make the tools of the trade for the Ranger. So within the confines of the game we get the HX2 Mine to cover all possible offensive traps.
This one just happens to explode, it is still a trap created by a Ranger and controlled by a Ranger.
maigy wrote:
I doubt most weaponsmiths even know that rangers are getting the ability to craft better mines than us.
Unless you've been given access to documents or testing servers that nobody else here has, I don't think you're qualified to determine which is "better". We have no idea as to the extent of the damage of these things, or their range or anything. There is zero hard data on the subject and you are making dangerous guesses. Information is needed here, not speculation. You don't have the former, so resorting to the latter is a bad idea.
For the record, you do realize that at first, grenades couldn't produce states effects and that only Rangers traps could produce AoE state effects. I guess you should lose your entire grenade crafting tree since you guys stole from Ranger. And wait! If we put grenade crafting in scout and since scouts could craft grenades, it makes sense that we can craft mines.
problem solved. So we'll be taking those grenade schematics now, thanks. 
I said it too, but you type faster =P
CorethLandwalker wrote:
I really, REALLY don't want to be the one to say this, but....
Until the changes get on TC, we don't actually know that the Ranger mines will be "better".
maigy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
maigy wrote:
no you don't ... previously, you were able to craft traps.... deploying a minefield is not a trap... especially since weaponsmiths alreay have the ablitly to craft mines
like many people, you're getting hung up on ONE of our traps. there is also a kamio dart assembly and a caltrop assemby. Those are traps. Rangers also have been abele to craft camo kits -- where OQ plays a factor-- since 2003, as well as being able to craft complex camps since launch. Being self-sufficient has been a part of Ranger ideology since the game launched. I'm sorry if you feel this somehow infringes upon your turf, but Rangers have been making their own weapons since they were but a wee Novice Scout at launch.
you know what I wrote a big reply and the boards ate it lol... so I will just some it up as why do we need more self sufficient professions in an MMORPG
It's not more if we already had the ability to be self sufficient.
Phenix1050 wrote:
For the record, I understand why you have a problem with this, I don't think it's greed, but I don't agree with your logic either.
You keep saying the mine is the problem, but you seem to have no problem with the caltrop or the kamino dart, both of which are traps. So your argument doesn't seem to hold as much water when you're saying only some traps should be made by WS. And you seem to forget that Ranger has always been a profession that has involved crafting. These new items follow the same forumula as our camo kits, which take high OQ resources and allow us to experiment on them. We make camo kits, we make amazingly intricate camps (which include a lot of electronic equipment such as crafting stations) and we make traps. To justify you're position, it would make sense to remove ALL of the crafting from Scout and Ranger. Otherwise, we have justification for being able to craft things.
So unless you believe ALLcrafting should be removed from Ranger, then your logic seems to have a lot of rather largeholes in it.
In the end what you're asking is like asking smugglers to give up spice crafting to chefs without giving them anything in return. We already make traps, so that's not being added. We already make camo, so that's not new. Only thing that's getting added is the H.E.P. which is essentially an urban camo kit and thus made by us. I'll ask again-- are you only opposed to the mine, or do you want the caltrop assembly and the Kamino Dart device as well?
BaneShee wrote:
Phen,
Your logic is a little off as well. Yes we have always been able to make traps but creature only traps. The difference is that nowwe can make NPC/PC traps which hopefully will be much better than the WS mines, If they aren't then I think we will all be very unhappy.
my logic is this: we've always been able to craft our own weapons, we should continue to be able to make our own weapons. who cares if it's NPC/PC or creatures? that has no bearing on my logic. Whether traps affect only creatures or only Rodians, the fact is thatcrafting my own equipment has always been a part of my template, and I see no reason why I should lose that.
Should weaponsmith-made weapons not work against creatures because they're notscouts? I don't think they'd like it if their weapons were restricted in that way. Butif you want to make the point that because our traps will now affect different targets and newrules should apply, then I'd say thatweapons that affect creatures should only be madeby a scout. Sound like a good trade?
The point is that we make traps now, we should continue to make weapons. In my mind, those weapons should work in all aspects of the game. just because our focus is shifing doesn't mean we should lose the ability to be self-sufficient to a certain degree.
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 09-28-2005 11:02 AM
maigy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
we've ALWAYS been able to make our own traps.we've always been self sufficient, it's not like they're "adding"that to our profession. Rangers have alwaysbeen self sufficient, and you want us to lose that, whichhurts us. I'll try and break it down simply.
- If we continue to make our own traps we gain nothing and we lose nothing. Weaponsmiths gain nothing and lose nothing they have now.
- If we have to got to a weaponsmith we lose the self-sufficiency we love and we gain nothing. Weaponsmiths lose nothing and gain the ability to craft items a few items that they'll sell to a small minority of the populus.
So if it stays the way it is (which it will), then nothing changes. If you had your way, Rangers would lose a huge part of their profession (self sufficiency) for very small boost to the WS profession. If I had to buy these from other people, I wouldn't use them. They're gonig to be too complicated to use in most situations, and if I had to buy stuff to do that, I'd avoid that. I'm sure a lot of others would too.
Again, do you object to the caltrop assembly or the kamino dart assembly? Those are traps too. Do you think you should have those, or are you singling out the mine?
I thought the ranger ideology was supposed to be shfting from wilderness/loaner to assassin/secret service dude.... why do rangers keep everything the use to have and gain a ton of new abilities... I think that there should be a trade off and to some degree that trade off should be self-suficiency... The Devs have already stated that Ranger is balanced... they said at CU launch that all Professions were now balanced.
No, they said the combat system was balanced. Rangers are being changed from a non-combat to a combat related profession. There is a certain amount of integrating that must be done with the profession.
So why should ranger got a ton of new things without a trade off. Yes it may seem like sour grapes and all, but mines would have been so cool to craft. Well, mines that people use, rather than the mines that I can currently make that never get used.
Maybe our tradeoff comes when you, as a weaponsmith, will be able to craft more unique weapons with the upcoming expansion of the Trials of Obi Wan. The previews for the game all say that there will be MANY new weapon schematics for you guys. Maybe squad leaders and rangers don't get quite the content that all the other profession do, so the devs said, "Hey, this might be a good time to do something with those professions."
Also, why do weaponsmiths and commandos insist on making it sound like we will be laying these HUGE minefields? We get to lay ONE mine at a time. There will be a limit as to how many traps we can actually place in a given area, I assume using the same rules that govern the placing of structures. It's not like we're going to need these things in mass quantities. The state traps will probably be of more use to us anyway. If our explosive traps were crafted by weaponsmiths they either a) would be too much trouble to track down when you need them b) wouldn't be worth the weaponsmith's time to make due to the small amount of resources needed.
Message Edited by maigy on 09-28-2005 08:58 AM
Message Edited by Makkaio on 09-28-2005 12:13 PM