Ranger Archive
Thread: The trap crafting debate is resolved :).
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
see, this is where we part ways Calc. I could just as easily say to you "god forbid the people that already make their own weapons want to CONTINUE to make their own weapons. how dare they". That argument to me has equal merit to me.
The thing for me is that I don't think that there would be as much outcry if Rangers made a weapon that shot electricity out (a la Assassin in Diablo II). People are getting hung up on the idea of stuff going "boom" that they're losing the big picture. Nobody seems to mind Rangers getting traps...just the mine because it explodes. Nobody seems to have a problem with the Kamino dart which will do DOT damage. What is the cualitative difference. Nobody seems to object to us getting traps that do damage, but they have a problem with it because of the name and the fact that it explodes. That to me is the weakest type of argument. If the trap did electrical damage and renamed, I honestly think 9/10ths of the complaints would die down.
This is were I agree with Phenix 100%. Its a name. If the Name was changed to HX2 Booby Trap would the clamour for anyone but a Ranger being able to craft it be there?
Phenix1050 wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
see, this is where we part ways Calc. I could just as easily say to you "god forbid the people that already make their own weapons want to CONTINUE to make their own weapons. how dare they". That argument to me has equal merit to me.
The thing for me is that I don't think that there would be as much outcry if Rangers made a weapon that shot electricity out (a la Assassin in Diablo II). People are getting hung up on the idea of stuff going "boom" that they're losing the big picture. Nobody seems to mind Rangers getting traps...just the mine because it explodes. Nobody seems to have a problem with the Kamino dart which will do DOT damage. What is the cualitative difference. Nobody seems to object to us getting traps that do damage, but they have a problem with it because of the name and the fact that it explodes. That to me is the weakest type of argument. If the trap did electrical damage and renamed, I honestly think 9/10ths of the complaints would die down.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Maxanto wrote:
DaveG wrote:
maigy wrote:
I think the line is when non-weaponsmiths start crafting munitions/explosives
Maxanto wrote:
And further more... Should weaponsmiths make scout traps, what about lightsabers? When does that line of logic end?
One more thing I think you're missing - I presume the mines you make can be used by anyone (if I'm wrong, forgive me, I didn't even know there were mines in the game already until I read your post - just shows how popular they are!). However, the mines that Rangers make, will only be usable by Rangers.
Rangers will not be able to produce munitions for the whole population, only for themselves. You are arguing about loosing something you never had. Like Phenix said, Rangers are a minority of the population, and I dare say we still will be once the novelty of the revamp wears off.
Very well put! QFE. Also Weaponsmith already has how many craftable items in the game? Now they want more? Thats just greed 100%
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
God forbid the people who already make traps continue to make the traps...
Maxanto wrote:
All I am getting out of this is the weaponsmiths crying "GIMME ITS MINE" WS's never made ranger traps they shouldnt start now. Why dont they complain about lightsabers? That would make more sense to me than this garbage.
he hasa right to express his opinion. Are they explosive mines? Yes. In some respects, his argument has merit. There is no need to be rude or assume the worst. He's concerned about his profession just like we are. I respect his willingness to come here and discuss it. Insulting him only makesus look bad. I disagree with the specifics of his arguments but his heart is in the right place.
I don't think that any of us is fit to say this person has no right to ask for mines. There is certainly a precedent for them to have mines. There is also a precident for us to have them. The argument then comes down to conceptual arguments. Is it wrong in concpet for Rangers to have damage-dealing traps? There appears to be little argument against the concept, but against this individual implementation because of the fact that it explodes. If it's not a conceptual argument, but against the name of the trap, it just seems nitpicky and not overly logical to fight against the trap.
But insulting this guy and questioning his motives isn't neccesary.
Phenix1050 wrote:
BaneShee wrote:
Phen,
Your logic is a little off as well. Yes we have always been able to make traps but creature only traps. The difference is that nowwe can make NPC/PC traps which hopefully will be much better than the WS mines, If they aren't then I think we will all be very unhappy.
my logic is this: we've always been able to craft our own weapons, we should continue to be able to make our own weapons. who cares if it's NPC/PC or creatures? that has no bearing on my logic. Whether traps affect only creatures or only Rodians, the fact is thatcrafting my own equipment has always been a part of my template, and I see no reason why I should lose that.
Should weaponsmith-made weapons not work against creatures because they're notscouts? I don't think they'd like it if their weapons were restricted in that way. Butif you want to make the point that because our traps will now affect different targets and newrules should apply, then I'd say thatweapons that affect creatures should only be madeby a scout. Sound like a good trade?
The point is that we make traps now, we should continue to make weapons. In my mind, those weapons should work in all aspects of the game. just because our focus is shifing doesn't mean we should lose the ability to be self-sufficient to a certain degree.
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 09-28-2005 11:02 AM
Phenix1050 wrote:
Maxanto wrote:
All I am getting out of this is the weaponsmiths crying "GIMME ITS MINE" WS's never made ranger traps they shouldnt start now. Why dont they complain about lightsabers? That would make more sense to me than this garbage.
he hasa right to express his opinion. Are they explosive mines? Yes. In some respects, his argument has merit. There is no need to be rude or assume the worst. He's concerned about his profession just like we are. I respect his willingness to come here and discuss it. Insulting him only makesus look bad. I disagree with the specifics of his arguments but his heart is in the right place.
I don't think that any of us is fit to say this person has no right to ask for mines. There is certainly a precedent for them to have mines. There is also a precident for us to have them. The argument then comes down to conceptual arguments. Is it wrong in concpet for Rangers to have damage-dealing traps? There appears to be little argument against the concept, but against this individual implementation because of the fact that it explodes. If it's not a conceptual argument, but against the name of the trap, it just seems nitpicky and not overly logical to fight against the trap.
But insulting this guy and questioning his motives isn't neccesary.
I am not questioning anyones motives. Those are clear. They want something they have never had... Why is what I am wondering? They don't have enough to make already? These are not detailed devices, they are simple to make that anyone can make with cleaning stuff at home. Like I said before if it was a complex device, I would agree with thme more, but they are not.
Again they never made traps for scouts or rangers before... why would they now? As far as their mines are concerned... thats for them to take to the devolpers and not to complain about on the ranger forums. We have nothing to do with their issues.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
see, this is where we part ways Calc. I could just as easily say to you "god forbid the people that already make their own weapons want to CONTINUE to make their own weapons. how dare they". That argument to me has equal merit to me.
The thing for me is that I don't think that there would be as much outcry if Rangers made a weapon that shot electricity out (a la Assassin in Diablo II). People are getting hung up on the idea of stuff going "boom" that they're losing the big picture. Nobody seems to mind Rangers getting traps...just the mine because it explodes. Nobody seems to have a problem with the Kamino dart which will do DOT damage. What is the cualitative difference. Nobody seems to object to us getting traps that do damage, but they have a problem with it because of the name and the fact that it explodes. That to me is the weakest type of argument. If the trap did electrical damage and renamed, I honestly think 9/10ths of the complaints would die down.
I never said either side is right/wrong (and I agree with you, Phen, we have just as much a right as anyone to make our new traps, and the devs agree). I do think that calling a WS, who wants to craft explosives, greedy is wrong...it's kind of petty and calling someone greedy while trying to keep everything for yourself/profession is hypocritical.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
see, this is where we part ways Calc. I could just as easily say to you "god forbid the people that already make their own weapons want to CONTINUE to make their own weapons. how dare they". That argument to me has equal merit to me.
The thing for me is that I don't think that there would be as much outcry if Rangers made a weapon that shot electricity out (a la Assassin in Diablo II). People are getting hung up on the idea of stuff going "boom" that they're losing the big picture. Nobody seems to mind Rangers getting traps...just the mine because it explodes. Nobody seems to have a problem with the Kamino dart which will do DOT damage. What is the cualitative difference. Nobody seems to object to us getting traps that do damage, but they have a problem with it because of the name and the fact that it explodes. That to me is the weakest type of argument. If the trap did electrical damage and renamed, I honestly think 9/10ths of the complaints would die down.
I never said either side is right/wrong (and I agree with you, Phen, we have just as much a right as anyone to make our new traps, and the devs agree). I do think that calling a WS, who wants to craft explosives, greedy is wrong...it's kind of petty and calling someone greedy while trying to keep everything for yourself/profession is hypocritical.
ok I cave. and in the spirit of Calc's exagerations....
Make all camps be made by architects.
Make all Smuggler tools made by artisans.
Make all Lightsabers, traps, mines, etc anything else weapon like made by weaponsmiths.
If your profession can use a weapon, then make sure they can not craft anything. If you can craft something make sure you can not fight anything.
Dont forget about entertainers... make the props made by artisans.
Yea thats logical... lets go with that.
Message Edited by Maxanto on 09-28-2005 11:28 AM
.
Maxanto wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
God forbid the people that already make explosives want to CONTINUE to make explosives..how dare they.
see, this is where we part ways Calc. I could just as easily say to you "god forbid the people that already make their own weapons want to CONTINUE to make their own weapons. how dare they". That argument to me has equal merit to me.
The thing for me is that I don't think that there would be as much outcry if Rangers made a weapon that shot electricity out (a la Assassin in Diablo II). People are getting hung up on the idea of stuff going "boom" that they're losing the big picture. Nobody seems to mind Rangers getting traps...just the mine because it explodes. Nobody seems to have a problem with the Kamino dart which will do DOT damage. What is the cualitative difference. Nobody seems to object to us getting traps that do damage, but they have a problem with it because of the name and the fact that it explodes. That to me is the weakest type of argument. If the trap did electrical damage and renamed, I honestly think 9/10ths of the complaints would die down.
I never said either side is right/wrong (and I agree with you, Phen, we have just as much a right as anyone to make our new traps, and the devs agree). I do think that calling a WS, who wants to craft explosives, greedy is wrong...it's kind of petty and calling someone greedy while trying to keep everything for yourself/profession is hypocritical.
ok I cave. and in the spirit of Calc's exagerations....Make all camps be made by architects.
Make all Smuggler tools made by artisans.
Make all Lightsabers, traps, mines, etc anything else weapon like made by weaponsmiths.
If your profession can use a weapon, then make sure they can not craft anything. If you can craft something make sure you can not fight anything.
Dont forget about entertainers... make the props made by artisans.
Yea thats logical... lets go with that.
Message Edited by Maxanto on 09-28-2005 11:28 AM
/nuzzle You are my hero.
I need jam to catch the wasps.
)Personally, I wouln't complain if crafters could make some of the more technical things we can (weaponsmiths make mines, droid engineers making HEP's). Although I would complain if they could make them any better than we could. The weapon-type things we can craft are fairly standard things, as such I don't see much room for improvement in them.
I'll say it again though - Weaponsmiths have nothing to worry about Rangers crafting their own offensive devices. Nobody but Rangers can use the things that Rangers make. Therefore, not many Rangers will be selling things to other Rangers that other Rangers can make for themselves. If a Ranger is ever successful enough to sell a Ranger only device to a non-Ranger, well *shrug*, there's one born everyday
Having said all that, I think if weaponsmiths should be complaining to anyone about anything, I don't think they should be complaining about Rangers being able to do what they've always been able to do. Rather, I think they should be complaining about the devs creating numerous weapons as quest rewards that out-perform nearly every weaponsmith crafted weapon.
Message Edited by DaveG on 09-28-2005 05:58 PM