Ranger Archive
Thread: Any update on a fix for Harvest Droids?
JascoSmlee
Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:39 am
#40
JB, I respectfully disagree.
JBMat wrote:
There is no fix required as there is no problem with the harvest droids. It is that simple.
If there is no problem, why are some so many people complaining? I mean Droid Engineers too, not just Scouts/Rangers.
Having said that, to the minority of Rangers who think they have been shorted out of harvest by the recent changes, I say this - You have lost nothing. However, you have gained nothing either. You are at status quo, regardless of any changes. If you change and adapt, you will gain harvest. If you remain static you do not benefit from the changes. This is your choice, your action or inactionaffects your harvest.
As I said above, I used a droid not for the harvest increase, but for the convenience of having the droid do the legwork (which is what droids are for aren't they?). Now that it is detrimental for me to use a droid, I have ceased using one! Therefore I have adapted. This still does not change the fact that the droids are now useless.
The droids are working as intended, as programmed, and as asked for by the majority of the Scout/Ranger profession who campaigned for the change making pets/droids unaffected by the harvesting nerf.
They were programmed before the changes, I believe they are now out of date and require an upgrade, otherwise they will be (are) obsolete.
The fact that harvestor droids don't work as well as some people think they should is not a cause for concern. I would direct these people to the posts of over a year ago, when pets caused a 40% reduction in harvesting. The fix was making pets, and under the same auspices, droids, immune from the grouping nerf. The next line is important, so it gets set out by itself. Read it twice.
Being immune from the nerf also made them immune to the new changes.
Didn't this fix come in before Harvest Droids even existed?
The droids are continuing to work exactly the same as they have before the new changes. No higher, no lower. Same harvest, unaffected by any grouping rules, just like people wanted, asked for, lobbied for, screamed for and got implemented.
AKAIK we have NEVER had a clear explanation of how the droid bonuses should be working anyway. I for one always thought the bonus they granted was a percentage of the users own bonus up to a certain cut off point. If this was the case, then surely they do need to be looked at as that cut of point is now obviously too low.
The droids need to changed and adapted. If they remain static they will be made obsolete by the changes.
Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 03-22-2005 02:52 PM
Almagill
Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:01 am
#41
Could somebody help clarify a couple of points?
1) When were harvest droids introduced? (Which publish)
2) What was the change to droid behaviours (referred to several times by JB) introduced to prevent bosting of group numbers or to prevent the droid 'invoking' the harvest-while-grouped penalty that was recently phased out? (If possible, a link to an actual thread detailling the changes would be preferable to a possibly mis-remembered recollection of events)
** Having checked the issues with lower harvests when grouped with a pet seem to first appear around April 2003. Players are reporting reduced harvests if they harvest while grouped with a pet. By August 03 the 60% harvest while grouped rule is in place and applies to 'pets'. In this case pets refers to any droid, creature or faction npc controlled by a player.
3) Is the droids harvest level based on the owners creature harvesting level (including modifiers) x the droids harvest rating?
Those players who are experiencing an issue with their droid harvesting significantly less than they anticipated, can they give details of:
a) their current creature harvest level,
b) their droids harvest rating,
c) whether they were grouped (with other players)
d) whether the droid was also grouped.
1) When were harvest droids introduced? (Which publish)
2) What was the change to droid behaviours (referred to several times by JB) introduced to prevent bosting of group numbers or to prevent the droid 'invoking' the harvest-while-grouped penalty that was recently phased out? (If possible, a link to an actual thread detailling the changes would be preferable to a possibly mis-remembered recollection of events)
** Having checked the issues with lower harvests when grouped with a pet seem to first appear around April 2003. Players are reporting reduced harvests if they harvest while grouped with a pet. By August 03 the 60% harvest while grouped rule is in place and applies to 'pets'. In this case pets refers to any droid, creature or faction npc controlled by a player.
3) Is the droids harvest level based on the owners creature harvesting level (including modifiers) x the droids harvest rating?
Those players who are experiencing an issue with their droid harvesting significantly less than they anticipated, can they give details of:
a) their current creature harvest level,
b) their droids harvest rating,
c) whether they were grouped (with other players)
d) whether the droid was also grouped.
Message Edited by Almagill on 03-22-2005 03:38 PM
JBMat
Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:39 am
#42
Before taking on Jason's post -
Dave G - mission levels have never been a part of our nerf. In fact, until I made Master Pistol, my probot raised my mission levels. Grouped with another master and a droid, my mission level still raises. I think you are confused here. The change was to make pets exempt from the group harvesting nerf.
Time line for those not around - no dates tho, just a general timeline - THIS IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY DROIDS AND PETS ARE NOT AFFECTED FROM GROUP HARVESTING RULES
Groups of people = 1 person can harvest one resource. 10 Scouts in a group, 1 AND ONLY ONE PLAYER harvests. A change is requested.
Change comes about - all people with scout can harvest while grouped, however, it is at a 60% of normal rate. Pets and droids count towards this reduction. There is debate on if pets/droids should count, majority says no, this change is implemented. Pets and droids grouped with a player are exempt from the group harvesting rules. This is the exact change requested by the majority.
Two "players" = 60% harvest, a player and a pet/droid= 100%. The majority is happy.
Ok, Jason - you may disagree, but the facts of the matter are still on my side.
People are complaining becausethe droids are still harvesting at the old rate, as they should be, because the group harvesting rates don't apply to them. These people mistakenly believe the droids should be getting more when grouped. DEs are screaming because no one is buying the now pretty much useless droids which means they are losing money. I don't expect DEs to understand the change that made the droids immune to the new harvesting rules. Rangers/Scouts who asked for the change way back when had better understand what they did. Their actions at the time to request that pets and ultimately droids be exempt from the group harvesting rules has lead to the situation today.
Ok, you adapted and you even state your droid is useless. Welcome to the club, sorry you wasted your money on a harv droid. Should have listened to me from day 1. No new programming is needed, the people who wanted a change over a year ago got new programming. No more, no less. Yes, this fix of making droids immune to the harvesting nerf came long before harv droids came about. And your point is?? The droids are exempt from the group harvesting rules, what the majority wanted.
The droids are not broken. It is the perception of the droid's behavior while grouped that is broken.The same people who were unwilling to make droids a group member subject to the nerf now insist the droid be a group member subject to the new rules.
Say what? Read the above line again and see if you can still make an argument on why, after it was insisted that droids not be subject to group harvesting rules, that droids now be subject to group harvesting rules. Just because the rules changed for the better does not mean that the droids need to change. In fact, after the screaming and gnashing of teeth to get the droids exempt from the group nerf, it is the height ofinconsistency to insist they now be subject to the same rules. Rangers/scouts asked for the change exempting droids/pets from the group harv nerf, they got the change, and now they are whining about the change? How much sense does that make??
You asked for it, you got it. Sorry about that. Deal with it. The majority ruled then, they got the change they wanted. Finding out that ultimately the change sucks and is hurting you - that's called tough noogies. Majority ruled, but nothing ever says the majority will be right. (think slavery)
Yes, the majority can once again try and make a change. Have at it. You all can die on this hill. I can't wait to see the arguments. And droid obsolence is a crock of crap so don't even go there. Address the change exempting droids and pets from the group harvesting rule. I am watching and laughing from the sidelines. And "it's not fair" is a statement, not an argument, back it up. So far, all I have seen is unsubstantiated drivel. The facts are above. Make your arguments.
"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need"
JB
JBMat
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:01 am
#43
Yanno, I postulated that the droids are hardwired at +125 maxed, then add in veghash.
Can someone check this?
If so, then Jasco is right in that Masters are hosed if they use droids.
and my first name is JB
JB
velm
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:04 am
#44
While it may seem as though JB has a certain dislike for harvey droids, and others have not seen a useful increase their abilities, to each their own.
Now, I would have to agree with the person who said the harvey is acting on the behalf of that particular person, as a proxy, if you will. With that droid acting as a proxy, or on behalf of that person, why should they get less?
As far as solo = 1 and more than solo = group. Sorry, I would have to disagree with adding pets/droids in that equation. Yes, 1+1=2, and 1+0=1, however, if I say I am going jogging by myself but a person sees me with my dog, am I 'solo' or in a group? I believe the 'solo', 'group' should refer to people, actual live toons, not a droid, not a pet. If there is ONE person, he is 'solo', if there is one person with a pet, and a droid, he is 'solo'. How is that possible? 1+2=3, 3=group! Out of that equation, only ONE of them is an actual player, therefore, those other numbers should be null and void.
Now, for some, it may indeed only havest a fraction of the amount. However, how was this 'test' done? was it done on Rancors? or on Chubas? What circumstances was it done on? were they 'fat' or 'skinny'? There is a world of difference between what a Rancor drops and what a Chuba drops. It still might only be ONE unit. But one thing to bear in mind is that, the harvester can harvest while the player is in combat, the player cannot. If a person is going after Lok Avian for 65 cpu and comes across a wild lair, should they break aggro, they WILL lose resources because corpses WILL disappear. So, is this person still ONLY getting 1 extra unit? If that corpse is 55m away, how much fun is it to go that 55m just to harvest a corpse or two?
As it stands now, the DE and Ranger/Scout community is at a bit of a disadvantage because of thisin a group setting. As I stated in an earlier post, they should NOT count for a group bonus, so Player X grouped with his Harvey will NOT get 120% PLUS whatever the droid will give him. It should, however, grant him a bonus while heis grouped with others of some form. If it can give a bonus in solo, why not in a group, depending on quality, of course?
Oculus
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:14 am
#45
JBMat wrote:There is no fix required as there is no problem with the harvest droids. It is that simple.
Having said that, to the minority of Rangers who think they have been shorted out of harvest by the recent changes, I say this - You have lost nothing. However, you have gained nothing either. You are at status quo, regardless of any changes. If you change and adapt, you will gain harvest. If you remain static you do not benefit from the changes. This is your choice, your action or inaction affects your harvest.The droids are working as intended, as programmed, and as asked for by the majority of the Scout/Ranger profession who campaigned for the change making pets/droids unaffected by the harvesting nerf.The fact that harvestor droids don't work as well as some people think they should is not a cause for concern. I would direct these people to the posts of over a year ago, when pets caused a 40% reduction in harvesting. The fix was making pets, and under the same auspices, droids, immune from the grouping nerf. The next line is important, so it gets set out by itself. Read it twice.Being immune from the nerf also made them immune to the new changes.The droids are continuing to work exactly the same as they have before the new changes. No higher, no lower. Same harvest, unaffected by any grouping rules, just like people wanted, asked for, lobbied for, screamed for and got implemented.Sorry, I am all done with this topic. The droids work fine, just like the majority asked for. There is nothing to fix, as nothing is broken.JB
Sorry JB. As a Correspondant you don't have that freedom.
We all know you don't like the harvest droids but that doesn't mean you can ignore our concerns and point us towards changes made a year ago.
The state where are in now, that, when grouped with players, using a droid will get you a lower harvest than if you did it by hand, is a new state in terms of gameplay. Before the change, using the droid in a group of other PCs, you would still get the 20% grouping penalty. Now we don't get the xx% grouping bonus. You are not comparing the right mechanics here.
I know you'd be all too happy to burry this because you're not interested in adapting and using droids but untill the Devs say yes, using a droid when grouped with other players, should result in you havesting less resources than doing it by hand, the droids are broken.
I expect you to raise this concern on the Corr. forums ( as I believe you said you allready did ) and not wipe community concerns of the table just cause you think this is somehow fair because of changes that were made when the new system didn't even exist, in it's current form.
Oku Kee'lus
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:18 am
#46
FWIW, JB is the Scout corr and has no duty to the Ranger forum, unless he chooses.
I think both sides are misunderstanding what the other is saying. Until the issue is understood, no one can really take it to the Devs, you know?
I think both sides are misunderstanding what the other is saying. Until the issue is understood, no one can really take it to the Devs, you know?
velm
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:37 am
#47
I see no reason why JB cannot poke his head in here as a member of the public and NOT as a corr, that is. He is entitled to his opinion just as we are, but within theconfines of this board, his say should be the same as everyone else's.
Vorpaks
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:39 am
#48
Before, if you were in a group with another player you would get a penalty. This penalty would affect your harvester droid if you used it (i.e. you could not get around the penalty by using a droid). If you were grouped with only your droid you did not get a penalty because it was not counted as a real group.
Now, if you are grouped with another player you get a bonus. However, if you use your droid while in this group it is still affected by the previous penalty.
In other words they removed the penalty from players and added a bonus to players but they did not remove the penalty from the droids and they did not add a bonus to the droids.
This is what is being reported on the DE forums at least. If anyone could provide some numbers to confirm or deny this that would be great. I have house guests this week so I probably will not be able to test anything myself until next week sadly.
From what I undestand it there is a seperate issue about droids giving no or little bonus to Master Rangers because of the +50. The question is - did the developers intend to have the harvesting droids give a bonus to all Rangers, including Masters? I think they did, therefore the droid is not working as intended. It has always been like this, but that does not mean it should not or can not be fixed.
As this is a useful product for DEs I think they have it on their "to be fixed" list as well. They might even have more luck than we will, considering they are the producers and we are only the consumers. Harvesting droids are almost more their content than ours. Why would the developers give them a droid that does nothing for the customer group who would be most likely to buy it? I do not think that is working as intended.
Now, if you are grouped with another player you get a bonus. However, if you use your droid while in this group it is still affected by the previous penalty.
In other words they removed the penalty from players and added a bonus to players but they did not remove the penalty from the droids and they did not add a bonus to the droids.
This is what is being reported on the DE forums at least. If anyone could provide some numbers to confirm or deny this that would be great. I have house guests this week so I probably will not be able to test anything myself until next week sadly.
From what I undestand it there is a seperate issue about droids giving no or little bonus to Master Rangers because of the +50. The question is - did the developers intend to have the harvesting droids give a bonus to all Rangers, including Masters? I think they did, therefore the droid is not working as intended. It has always been like this, but that does not mean it should not or can not be fixed.
As this is a useful product for DEs I think they have it on their "to be fixed" list as well. They might even have more luck than we will, considering they are the producers and we are only the consumers. Harvesting droids are almost more their content than ours. Why would the developers give them a droid that does nothing for the customer group who would be most likely to buy it? I do not think that is working as intended.
Almagill
Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:00 am
#49
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
FWIW, JB is the Scout corr and has no duty to the Ranger forum, unless he chooses.
I think both sides are misunderstanding what the other is saying. Until the issue is understood, no one can really take it to the Devs, you know?
Yup, and every one of us is a Master Scout. This is an issue that affects all scout based creature harvesting with droids. The impact seems more exagerated for Rangers however and as such it's being discussed here by Rangers.
The information I have asked for in my earlier post should, I hope, allow us to identify exactly what the problem is, if indeed there is a problem and then to look for the appropriate way to address the issue and raise it withthe Devs.
What we are seeing a problem that was introduced by a change to pet grouping in (from checking the forums) approximately April 2003. It has then been exacerbated by subsequent changes, not least the recent change to harvesting rates while grouped. The game itself and gameplay has changed significantly in the two years since that change went through and current players, both scouts and Rangers, are expressing a concern about what they see as an issue.
SWG is a dynamic game environment. If a sufficient number of players see that a change could be beneficial to them (without, btw, in any way handicapping the play style of any player who does NOT use a droid) then they should be allowed to explore that change without being dismissed out of hand by any correspondent saying "Well, I told you so" then going on to bang on about how that individual dislikes droids, etc.
As we have been reminded by another correspondent recently, the correspondents are 'just' players like the rest of us. It is their function to act as a conduit to and from the Dev's on behalf of the community.
Oculus
Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:31 am
#50
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
FWIW, JB is the Scout corr and has no duty to the Ranger forum, unless he chooses.
I think both sides are misunderstanding what the other is saying. Until the issue is understood, no one can really take it to the Devs, you know?
We know what the problem is.
The issues JB is comparing this to though, is not relevant.
He is explaining how we got droids changed so they don't count as a group, so we wouldn't get the 20% penalty. For this issue to be in line with that change, we would be debating if we should now get the grouping bonus while grouped with only a droid, and in that regard, he is, of course right. We shouldn't, since we got the change back then.
This issue, however, is different. We are not talking a player and his droid. We are talking a group of players and the droid.
Being in a group got you a 20% harvest reduction before the change. It didn't matter if you used your droid or did it by hand it was a % penalty.
Now that same penalty has been changed to a bonus and that is all that has changed, but the droids are unaffected somehow and this is the issue we should be comparing. What happened when you were grouped with other players and used your droid before the change and what happens now.
Not what happened when you were solo with your droid before and in a group now.
... and of course JB can come here as a "normal" poster and not a Correspondant but the droids are for both professions thus him commenting on them when we are talking about if something is WAD or not, does put him on "offical" duty
frightwig
Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:57 am
#51
Almagill wrote:
Could somebody help clarify a couple of points?
1) When were harvest droids introduced? (Which publish)
Yeah, good point Ken, that needs to be clarified. There seems to be some misunderstanding of the group/droid/penalty bug or not, and what happened when, or who warned who of what.... Seems like a lot of embellishing to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong on some points (I've been playing since Nov/Dec '03 but didn't start reading the forums until shortly before I registered (march '04). Personally, I can't remember an "I told you so" or "Be careful what you ask for" moment that predicted the coming of harvest droids or the removal of the harvesting penalty replaced by a bonus..
- (?) -40% penalty to group harvesting introduced.
- (As early as Nov '03 and before) People complained because they were grouped with their pets (to keep an eye on their HAM) and would receive an "unfair" penalty and wanted pets/droids to be taken.
- During this time, some argued "a group is a group"
- (April '04)Many new droids went to TC (Tons of debate and worries about the scout profession being "ruined" by harvest droids, etc.. despite their use not even being understood yet)
- (April '04) while in TC, group penalty to harvesting was removed if you were grouped only with pets/droids. Irrelevant issue regarding harvest droids, as they didn't need to be grouped to function
- (April '04) "Droids rebuilt" went live while people tried to figure out what to do with them and argued for/against their usefulness.
- (Feb '05) Removal of group harvesting penalty was replaced with harvesting bonus while grouped. Using your harvest droid while grouped only seems to take your harvesting ability into account, but ignores the group bonus increase. (still stacks with veghash?)
History:
Simply put, droids were introduced and never needed to be grouped with to receive a harvesting bonus.
Message Edited by frightwig on 03-22-2005 02:06 PM
frightwig
Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:13 pm
#52
Sorry, edited out my last couple of paragraphs of comments after reading Paks message...
I could have sworn that, while grouped with other players I would receive a -40% group penalty but if I pulled out my droid, it would slightly increase my harvest -- rather than keep me capped at -40% of my creature harvest skill. I do know that veghash would help out, but I can't remember if droids did or not..
Personally, I hate those droids and even as a master rifleman I find I'm able to kill/harvest much faster without them.
On the other hand, droids seemed to have been designed to increase your harvest based on your Creature Harvest skill + any modifiers. They stack with veghash after all.. Shouldn't they take into account the new group bonus to harvesting?
I could have sworn that, while grouped with other players I would receive a -40% group penalty but if I pulled out my droid, it would slightly increase my harvest -- rather than keep me capped at -40% of my creature harvest skill. I do know that veghash would help out, but I can't remember if droids did or not..
Personally, I hate those droids and even as a master rifleman I find I'm able to kill/harvest much faster without them.
On the other hand, droids seemed to have been designed to increase your harvest based on your Creature Harvest skill + any modifiers. They stack with veghash after all.. Shouldn't they take into account the new group bonus to harvesting?