Ranger Archive
Thread: Harvesting Changes New Thread (Flamers beware, you will not be tolerated).
Vorpaks
Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:24 am
#40
My note on RP: Personally I think it is all out the window as far as harvesting goes. If we really wanted realism only one person would be able to harvest the corpse and they would be able to harvest all three resource types. In the beginning of the game only one person could harvest. However, they found that even though this was realistic it created cumbersome and unfun gameplay and leveling. So they changed it so that everyone in a group could harvest, but each could not harvest the full amount. This, too, has proved to be rather cumbersome and unfun, acting as another discouragement to grouping. With the new bonus system they are trying it looks like realism is now totally secondary to fun gameplay. Which, in this case, is fine in my opinion - if you are going to be unrealistic might as well go all the way and make it as fun as possible.
So my question is not so much "Is it realistic?" but "Is it fun?"
If this is ends up to be another cumbersome system that people feel unhappy with then I think the whole point of the change is lost. Personally, grouped and testing this on TC I had a ton of fun, even though none of us were really happy with the results. Offering an incentive to group worked for me. I felt excited that there was a reason to group - that we were all getting something from it. The incentive itself well... What I didnt like was the complexity of the system and the unfairness of the harvesting amounts. Whether the fact that a Ranger0040 was outharvesting the Master is unfair or not is a question. But to me, playing it, it felt unfair, which made me unhappy. I don't think that basic feeling will go away with time.
I think that however a bonus to grouping is handled there still needs to be an appreciable increase of harvest at each level. A Scout0040 will want to group with a Novice Ranger for the 30% bonus. But for the Novice Ranger it is going to be a little niggling thorn that even though she invested in Master Scout and Novice Ranger, the 0040 Scout dabbler is harvesting more and will make more money at the end of the day than she will. People need to feel that they are getting an increase for their skill point investment that can't be matched by dabblers, no matter what. If we were all Angels of generosity no doubt we would feel happy to be giving someone that chance to be better than us, and make more money, and we would be happy with the fact that we ourselves are getting a 20% bonus. I am no Angel however, and I will feel bad about it and since I have at least a little morality I will feel bad about feeling bad and there you go. A miserable wookiee.
I am kind of obsessed with the idea of having a role and a purpose as some people may have noticed.
Currently our role is the main hunters of the galaxies. Looking at the current percentage gaps between harvesting levels, an ungrouped MRanger harvests about 34% more than a MScout. Under the new system when a MScout and MRanger are grouped the percentage will shrink to 16%. No matter what combo group, the percentage more that a higher level harvesting mod will give you becomes relatively less when grouped. Will this reduce the importance of a higher level Ranger as being the best hunter/harvester? Some people have suggested that this will increase the Master Rangers role as a leader of a hunt group. Will this make up for the fact that they will no longer shine as the primary resource gatherer of that group? I am not sure.
Eventually we want to see Ranger have more roles, more function, available when our skill lines are revamped. After the revamp maybe the tracking line will no longer be the "be all end all" of Ranger. However, the revamp is a long way away. Changing Ranger in any way now that would reduce the importance of the role we have should be very carefully looked at.
Side note:
One other thing that was a shock (though I knew it and was expecting it) was the fact that two buffed, unarmored single combat masteries could basically take on anything Endor threw at us with ease. I mostly solo unbuffed and unarmored when I am there and there are moments of challenge and strategy. Grouped, with buffs, there was no challenge - the two of us were unstoppable. But that is a problem for another publish.
So my question is not so much "Is it realistic?" but "Is it fun?"
If this is ends up to be another cumbersome system that people feel unhappy with then I think the whole point of the change is lost. Personally, grouped and testing this on TC I had a ton of fun, even though none of us were really happy with the results. Offering an incentive to group worked for me. I felt excited that there was a reason to group - that we were all getting something from it. The incentive itself well... What I didnt like was the complexity of the system and the unfairness of the harvesting amounts. Whether the fact that a Ranger0040 was outharvesting the Master is unfair or not is a question. But to me, playing it, it felt unfair, which made me unhappy. I don't think that basic feeling will go away with time.
I think that however a bonus to grouping is handled there still needs to be an appreciable increase of harvest at each level. A Scout0040 will want to group with a Novice Ranger for the 30% bonus. But for the Novice Ranger it is going to be a little niggling thorn that even though she invested in Master Scout and Novice Ranger, the 0040 Scout dabbler is harvesting more and will make more money at the end of the day than she will. People need to feel that they are getting an increase for their skill point investment that can't be matched by dabblers, no matter what. If we were all Angels of generosity no doubt we would feel happy to be giving someone that chance to be better than us, and make more money, and we would be happy with the fact that we ourselves are getting a 20% bonus. I am no Angel however, and I will feel bad about it and since I have at least a little morality I will feel bad about feeling bad and there you go. A miserable wookiee.
I am kind of obsessed with the idea of having a role and a purpose as some people may have noticed.
Currently our role is the main hunters of the galaxies. Looking at the current percentage gaps between harvesting levels, an ungrouped MRanger harvests about 34% more than a MScout. Under the new system when a MScout and MRanger are grouped the percentage will shrink to 16%. No matter what combo group, the percentage more that a higher level harvesting mod will give you becomes relatively less when grouped. Will this reduce the importance of a higher level Ranger as being the best hunter/harvester? Some people have suggested that this will increase the Master Rangers role as a leader of a hunt group. Will this make up for the fact that they will no longer shine as the primary resource gatherer of that group? I am not sure. Eventually we want to see Ranger have more roles, more function, available when our skill lines are revamped. After the revamp maybe the tracking line will no longer be the "be all end all" of Ranger. However, the revamp is a long way away. Changing Ranger in any way now that would reduce the importance of the role we have should be very carefully looked at.
Side note:
One other thing that was a shock (though I knew it and was expecting it) was the fact that two buffed, unarmored single combat masteries could basically take on anything Endor threw at us with ease. I mostly solo unbuffed and unarmored when I am there and there are moments of challenge and strategy. Grouped, with buffs, there was no challenge - the two of us were unstoppable. But that is a problem for another publish.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 02-23-2005 02:02 PM
agent156
Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:05 pm
#41
A thought
Any one can call it a group bonus till the cows come home. This does not change the fact that to benefit directly from this bonus you must have the skill /harvest.
Call it what ever you like, this is a Scout/Ranger bonus.
Any one can call it a group bonus till the cows come home. This does not change the fact that to benefit directly from this bonus you must have the skill /harvest.
Call it what ever you like, this is a Scout/Ranger bonus.
Vorpaks
Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:17 pm
#42
Rancorrider4 wrote: They were pretty close mostly. I just figured that as it was about that late for me too, that I had written something down wrong. Besides I trust you implicitly, asleep at the keyboard or not lol.
I am definitely more trustworthy when I am asleep. /halo
DesktopSaki
Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:41 pm
#43
I still don't like the fact that the soloing Ranger (or Scout) is now the one penalized. A grouped Ranger can already kill faster and harvest faster--not that it justifies a 40% hit.
There's no other class that's penalized for their grouping choices.
I say simply get rid of all penalties and all bonuses, or limit it to a flat 10% bonus and leave it at that. If you want to tie the bonus to a profession, then the person providing the bonus should reap the benefit of the it as well.
Anything more than 10% is too much IMO. The more we try to tier it, the more someone will get penalized. Penalties are not fun.
I love being a Master Ranger and am honored to be one--it was my first Elite profession and I've never dropped it--but to see a system put into place where someone with 43 or even 72 less skillpoints spent than me can outharvest me in any situation would make me very sad and wonder how valued my profession really is.
We have so little left, and this is our bread and butter; please don't disseminate it to others.
Message Edited by DesktopSaki on 02-23-2005 04:46 PM
Almagill
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:24 pm
#44
/rubHands
Well, it goes Live tomorrow (24th Feb).
"May you Live in interesting times!"
Well, it goes Live tomorrow (24th Feb).
"May you Live in interesting times!"
Railean
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:33 pm
#45
So let me get this straight. Tiggs comes on to these boards a couple of days ago, and asks people to go to the Test Server and bring back hard data. So rangers go off and do that, and find that the changes the Devs want to make are a little Fubared. Ok so then Tiggs sees the data, says thank you and that he will pass this on the devs. Four days later, the publish is going live tomorrow and we do not have anymore feedback on if they changed anything? Does that about sum this situation up? Thanks
DaveG
Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:11 am
#46
That about sums it up for me too, word for word.
DesktopSaki wrote:
...
I love being a Master Ranger and am honored to be one--it was my first Elite profession and I've never dropped it--but to see a system put into place where someone with 43 or even 72 less skillpoints spent than me can outharvest me in any situation would make me very sad and wonder how valued my profession really is.
...
Almagill
Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:11 am
#47
Railean wrote:
So let me get this straight. Tiggs comes on to these boards a couple of days ago, and asks people to go to the Test Server and bring back hard data. So rangers go off and do that, and find that the changes the Devs want to make are a little Fubared. Ok so then Tiggs sees the data, says thank you and that he will pass this on the devs. Four days later, the publish is going live tomorrow and we do not have anymore feedback on if they changed anything? Does that about sum this situation up? Thanks
Things frequently go through focus testing and are published to live 'unfixed'. There were a number of major changes going through in this current Publish and ours was, to be honest, a very small change.
Publishes are tested on TC to make sure there is nothing gamebreaking or that'll take the servers out. Tweaks to particualr problems that were unaddressed before the Publish can and are dealt with with Hotfix patches later.
This is a source of frustration that TC regulars have had to get used to, in this case, as it affects 'my' profession I'm having to seperate out my annoyance at it having got thru and the awareness of the realities of the SOE publishing schedule.
SOETyrant has responded to Bethya's post in the 13.1 bug thread saying that this will be fixed. The data that was collected and submitted to the Dev team will help get the fix 'right'.
Almagill
Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:22 am
#48
Railean wrote:
So let me get this straight. Tiggs comes on to these boards a couple of days ago, and asks people to go to the Test Server and bring back hard data. So rangers go off and do that, and find that the changes the Devs want to make are a little Fubared. Ok so then Tiggs sees the data, says thank you and that he<> will pass this on the devs. Four days later, the publish is going live tomorrow and we do not have anymore feedback on if they changed anything? Does that about sum this situation up? Thanks
She.
Vorpaks
Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:16 am
#51
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Railean wrote:
oops my bad.POUNCE ON HIM TIGGS!!!
Now that is a shameless plug for Tiggs attention if I ever saw one!
Is it true that if you look in a mirror and say her name three times she appears and Pounces you?
Obata
Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:18 am
#52
Vorpaks wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Railean wrote:
oops my bad.
POUNCE ON HIM TIGGS!!!
Now that is a shameless plug for Tiggs attention if I ever saw one!
Is it true that if you look in a mirror and say her name three times she appears and Pounces you?
nope
/whistleinoccently