Ranger Archive
Thread: Harvesting Changes New Thread (Flamers beware, you will not be tolerated).
Jasse wrote:
Dariane:
There might be a slight chance another "Master" knows something another "Master" doesn't know, (see Phenix posts about MR giving bonus to other MR as well), but I think this would rearely the case.
Well, we disagree. knowledge and experience are not necesarily the same. I would say still that two masters usually enhance eachother to a great extent, the better you get at something the more you will realize your own limits and appreciate the help of others at your level. but as I said we disagree I have my RL experiences telling me this, you may have others - see, we complement eachother already
. And some things are best done while more than one. For example skinning an animal (yes I hunt and fish in real life). I'm quite sure the novice benefits from the Master (40%) and the master can do his job more or less better with a knowlegdeable helper (20%-40%) being able to focus more on the critical parts of the task at hand.This might be more or less applicable to different professions, but I think the doctor example is one of the better ones, how many RL docs does everything alone at master level? second opinions, surgery etc.
Maybe... But...
More questions and more and more friction between classes, "Master" or not, would arise.
What you call friction I call rewarding interaction, negotiation, interdependance. The stuff that makes me play MMORPGS more than standalone games. The fuel for good roleplaying.
My experience in the game tought me one thing... Only if I would be leader and DISABLED the grouplooting/harvesting (if possible) then it would be working for me. Not because I do not like the players, but I'm not given any chance to get my harvest droid out, or my pets to fight along... Whenever I'm in a group, I run from one corpse to another just to be in time to harvest before it disappears (autoloot/autoharvest macros). Even the 64m won't help then. If they really want to imburse this situates, they should say the bonus only is in effect when a MR is within 8m of the corpse to be harvested.
If resources are low which causes the devs to look for a way to get more resources in the game, increase the yield in general
The resource situation may be the reason for the change, but the way they chose to implement it is imo the way the game is moving, more grouping, or atleast more propper (as opposed to solo-) grouping (severalchanges, the high level goals of the CURB etc). I personally don't think this is a dangerous precedence. Yes, soloers may beleft out in the cold bonuswise, but remember this is not solo grouping(64m limit), and corpses already go poof fast when harvested once so we're (sadly?) talking well above average group organization to reap the full benefits. ref. LagSolo's comment.
See previous comment. I would like to be able to group normally, getting fun and working together. I only get that now when I hunt togehter with OTHER MRs since they know what is going on and have the patience towait. And the occasional MScout. The rest of the people rush in, melee/sword/fencer and before I know it, the corpses get harvested and go poof....
True, since this is a VR world and hence it should/would not be reflecting IRL it might be more benficial to state that a "Master" is/has the ultimate knowledge of any given profession. In that way RP-ing becomes much easier. At least for meit does.
As you can see from my above comments, it doesn't for me. And thats probably where we differ, I love grouping and rely on my clan/group to fuel my RPing and use soloing for those times when I just need to get away for a bit (and still want to play SWG.....). I'm notvery worried about having a bonus or not, or the exacts of the implementation, but I do welcome and will support something that motivates others to grouping with my ranger. And belive it or not some of that motivation is that they dont feel like they are dragging me down.
I wouldn't mind that a group would get a bonus, the only point is I dislike the idea that for example, a Ranger0040 can outharvest me, a MR! It took a lot of time to get to MR and it costs a lot in regards of sp. So why would a Ranger0040 be able to outharvest me.
If a MR grouped with a MR would get a bit more (not 40%, that difference cannot be aduqately defended, not even using irl examples), I would'nt havea problem, cause the point you mentioned has some value.Ow and by any means, when i say MR, I mean also MS
Cause the same applies to them, I think.
The general harvesting community, ie, anyone with novice scout, needs the problem with the existing harvest while grouped penalty addressed. I think we are all in agreement that the Dev's have addressed this in this TC publish and that it would be a boon to everyone if this aprt went through as is.
The issues regarding the Ranger community are, again, two-fold. One is that the existing harvesting bonus is lacking in sufficient 'oomph' when you get to Master. The other is that the current proposal for a harvesting while grouped bonus introduces an anomoly where a lower skilled group member can outperform a Master level. This leads to a perception that the MR is being either neglected or penalised and, as we have unfortunately seem within the forum community, this is likely to cause all manner of disatisfaction if the proposed bonus change goes through to live as it currently stands.
It is possible to rationalise the discrepancy by developing various RP scenarios (master, teacher situations) and while this certainly has it's attractions I feel that the largely non-RP population would have reservations about chosing to see things in anything other than a negative light.
I like the idea of modifying the harvest bonus system to ensure that there is no situation where a lower skilled player outperforms a higher skilled player. Whether this is done by modifying the reward algorithm or by modifying the Rangers underlying harvest bonus (though we'd have to be careful that doing this didn't introduce other unforeseen glitches), it would be better for the harvesting community at large if this was held back to allow focused dev time and the development of a model that does reward grouping without appearing to unbalance the rewards for players effectively playing under the same 'grouped' rule.
A simple %reward based on the harvesters skill rate, coupled with the requirement that they are grouped and within a given radius of other team members at the time of harvest, would both encourage grouping and, with proper implementation of bonus rates, address most of the concerns that have been raised in connection with this change over the past few days.
Take that stinky old penalty away and I'll be happy. Promise me the other changes 'soon' but properly implemented and I'd be a happy happy bunny
, I've been lucky to find a bunch of people where I've had a chance to explain these things, and they actually listen. I hope you can get your potential hunting friends to listen too, or find new ones that actually find some pleasure in an effective and organized group - not just hack and slash (they tend to get bored and move on much faster too in my experience). ).
.
Phenix1050 wrote:
First off, I'd like to say that DaveG and Dariane had a valid point.Their concern over the future of solo Rangers is justified, especially considering that under the propsed system, a grouped 0040 scout would out-harvest a Master Ranger.
EDIT: BTW, this is nota flame at Phenix, I really like your proposed changes. I just want to keep inacurate info from spreading. We all know what can happen if it does
Message Edited by NerfBurger on 02-22-2005 05:34 PM
Phenix1050 wrote:First off, I'd like to say that DaveG and Dariane had a valid point.Their concern over the future of solo Rangers is justified, especially considering that under the propsed system, a grouped 0040 scout would out-harvest a Master Ranger. This change may be aimed at the entire harvesting community, but Rangers are the elites of the harvesting community meaning that while the change may not be solely for us, it should benefit us significantly. Here's how I would do things:
- Beef up the harvesting rate of a Master Ranger significantly- such that it's 20-25%% more than an 0040 Ranger or just move the points around to have this same effect.
- Remove the harvesting Penalty
- Add a 5% bonus to anyone in range of a Master Scout
- add a 10% bonus to when within 64m of a novicer Ranger
- add a 20% bonus when withing 64m of a Master Ranger
I feel that this is what is best for the harvesting community. Because in my system, a Master Ranger would only be able to be out-harvested by a grouped Master Ranger, meaning there is still room for solo play, which is good. You still encourage grouping, but there isn't as large a relative penalty to non-groupers. I also think that this addresses the main concerns that caused the developers to look at this. It encourages grouping and gets more resources into the community. This system would help the entire harvesting community, since they'd be getting somewhere between 40 and 60% more than they do now. But making people able to harvest 80% more than they can now when in a group is kinda silly. That's a HUGE amount of organics.
I realize this is supposed to be for the entire harvesting community, but I look at it like this: the Elite profession should ALWAYS be more in demand. When you're looking for someone to heal you, a Novice Medic can do it and a novice doctor can do it, but it's always going to be better to go out with a Master Doctor. The same should hold true in any aspect of the game. If you're going out, finding a master of some profession should always help you.
May be enough just to move points up, down and around a bit(some to wayfairing since it takes scoutxp too?)
Calc: A fresh start is a much better idea than a poll (Poor choice of words on my part, was too tired to think of a better way to put it)
no worries, mate. correct information is always good and you presented it respectfully. We can correct one another and disagree on issues, as long as we can resist the urge to do so angrily.
NerfBurger wrote:
EDIT: BTW, this is nota flame at Phenix, I really like your proposed changes. I just want to keep inacurate info from spreading. We all know what can happen if it does
Vorpaks wrote:
You should post them Oppma! Defintely if you see where I recorded bad ones point it out. Its not good to make assumptions on bad data! Considering it was close to 5am when we finally knocked off I'm not surprised if some got garbled.
5:00am? It was only 11:00pm here.
Had fun teaming up with you, Kimi and Nerfburger.
- A 0040 Ranger (Tracker) grouped with anyone will out harvest a Master Ranger solo. (270 vs. 238)
- The harvest difference becomes even greater when that Tracker groups with a Novice Ranger (293 vs. 238)
- 2 Novice Rangers grouped will eachharvest the same as a Master Ranger would solo. (238 vs. 238)
- When grouped with a Master Ranger all participants harvested more then the Master Ranger can solo
- and of course who could forget the fact that the Tracker outharvest the Master Ranger when in the same group
Since we're trying this again, here's my contribution, a few old points, a few new points.
The Unfair Equivalence
We all agree the current system of loosing 40% because you are grouped isn't fair. It is "a system in which you loose harvest depending on whether you are grouped or not".
Now with a bonus system, it is quite right that you can get 100% solo of what you can get solo now. However, because of the bonus, 100% isn't 100% anymore. The new 100% is (let's take the TC max for example) 140%, this is the new maximum possible harvest, therelies your solo penalty. So this is also "a system in which you loose harvest depending on whether you are grouped or not". Didn't we just say a system like that was unfair?
A RolePlay based bonus
A lot of people have tried at giving the bonus a basis in roleplay, so let's look at that. The argument for this is that "lesser harvesters" would learn from "greater harvesters". So in which case, if you group with someone of the same harvesting skill as yourself, then you couldn't learn anything, you both have equal knowledge. So, by the definition of "learning", you would only gain a bonus if you were grouped with someone of superior knowledge than yourself.
For master rangers, this recreates the zero bonus, zero penalty scenario. However, lower rangers and scouts are still stuck with what is questionably (see above) an unfair system. You could say that this works out okay because it is scouts and lower rangers who need to group together the most and master rangers are much more self sufficient. However, you could also say that it's still unfair for a scout/novice-ranger who doesn't want to, or can't (see below) get in a group very often.
A couple of criticisms of the "RP Learning" philosophy should also be highlighted. Firstly, it seems a little odd that you'd forget what you were taught as soon as the group disbands. Secondly, If this new "distributed skill" idea is going to go in, then shouldn't it be going in for other professions too? Surely shouldn't we be learning better med skills from doctors and master medics for example?
The Economic point of view
There have been some discussions that have said the devs wanted to flood the market with resources. This would hopefully bring down prices as supply might outstrip demand. If this is indeed so, a solution already exists without instituting a group bonus system. Test center already has increased milking and shellfish yield rates. If we really need to increase resources going into the market then why is the same solution not applied to meat, bone and hide, as has been for milk and shellfish? Is this not a much more direct and simple solution? Not least because the code exists and works, unlike the bonus system, for which code does exist but according to all your reports, it does not work (and proves difficult to find the right balance).
The Reality of grouping
When grouping works, it's great. In fact, a group is a advantageous bonus in itself, diversity of skills, extra damage output, etc. This is another reason why adding a group bonus is pushing things too far. Without penalising a group (as is the case in live currently), a group is already going to benefit the harvest of all members through speed alone, we all know this, we've all experienced it. So why push things up another gear to further set back the solo player (remember, 100% isn't 100% anymore if bonuses exist). Anyway, I digress.
We must remember that grouping isn't for everybody. Some people don't enjoy it, for some people it's just not practical because their real life doesn't permit them to either play at peak times or to indeed play for long enough to find a group and have a good gaming session as well. This change will hit those people, particularly if they want to keep up with others who have more time to play the game.
Another thing, I have seen other MMORPG's advertising (on their websites) the fact that they allow you to make progress without needing to group all the time and without having to spend hours on end every session. Therefore, if SWG gets the reputation that I've been informed EQ and EQ2 has for needing to group all the time, then it may become a matter of competition for subscribers too. Obviously, needing to group to get the maximum harvest would be instrumental in such a shift.
The Effect of the Combat Revamp
If all that we've heard about the emphasis of grouping after the combat revamp is true, then this is also an important issue for those who prefer (either out of taste or real life logistics) to play solo. This is speculation, but if (the killing of) higher yielding creatures are only accessible to groups, then the group bonus becomes an even further distortion towards groups. The situation could be that only groups can kill the creatures that give the biggest resource yields, and then they'll get even more resource because they're a group. Whereas the solo player will be stuck with killing the smaller creatures and not even getting the (theoretical) maximum harvest because he/she is not with a group. This really seems unbalanced favouritism towards group play.
Conclusion
At the end of the day, an MMORPG should be a world you can enter where the possibilities are vast and varied. We all know this is an MMO, but we all too easily forget the RPG part too. Even those who want to solo are taking part in an MMO because of the cycle of crafting and the economy. Even for soloists, it is the mere presence of other players that can drive their activities, so it is not true to say soloists should go and find single player games.
I think that while there are good reasons to put in the group bonus, not least to promote group play, however I think there are too many better reasons, too many breached principals, to permit it. I was saying about the vast and varied possibilities in an MMORPG world, well all we need to open those possibilities up is to remove obstacles. Currently because of the group harvest penalty, there is an obstacle to group hunting. If this is just removed without adding any further bonus, then people are open to play either way without the frustration of knowing they could do better if they played in a way the didn't wish to play. If people want to group, and there are no penalties for doing so, then they will. They do not needcoercing.
(Edited for font size)
Message Edited by DaveG on 02-23-2005 12:46 PM
- Anyone who as ever taught anything to anyone knows that the teacher learns in the process, as well as the student. Havingmastered one technigue does not mean that one can't learn a new technique. To use a RL situation (man, I hate applying these to a game), my brother and I are masters of a software package at work. Our paths to mastering this software were different and therefore we are constantly teaching each other new techniques to accomplish new goals.
- If you are losing harvests due to not reaching the corpse in time, you are in the wrong group. If this does happen, ask you group to slow down and if it continues to happen, leave them. I think that finding the right group is am important dynamicinMMORPGs; powergamers and relaxed gamers don't mix well.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Just a couple of points:
- If you are losing harvests due to not reaching the corpse in time, you are in the wrong group. If this does happen, ask you group to slow down and if it continues to happen, leave them. I think that finding the right group is am important dynamicinMMORPGs; powergamers and relaxed gamers don't mix well.
Hmm. I looked at the proposed looting system today. If this was extended to 1 person to be able to harvest or initiate the harvest the groupbonus might work. As in the highest skilled harvester would start the harvest then others would follow (something like that).
But then again, probably wishfull thinking.
Vorpaks wrote:
You should post them Oppma! Defintely if you see where I recorded bad ones point it out. Its not good to make assumptions on bad data! Considering it was close to 5am when we finally knocked off I'm not surprised if some got garbled.
They were pretty close mostly. I just figured that as it was about that late for me too, that I had written something down wrong. Besides I trust you implicitly, asleep at the keyboard or not lol.