Ranger Archive
Thread: Carbineer Pre-Req: RIDICULOUS
I hadn't realized that Squad Leader required Ranged Support IV. Damn SWGCalculator.
That doesn't change my opinion. If you want Ranger to stack with combat professions to make it more viable (besides the obvious benefits of first-strike, traps, etc.) then you can still do it with a simple two-branch Scout requirement. Simply place all the melee/ranged modifiers (both equally meted out) within the Ranger tree, spread out to minimize the impact of dabblers.
Again, there are simple solutions which don't require that much imagination. But you all can geek-out on the roleplaying and or "vision" aspect all you want, it's not my profession. Though I was hoping of playing a Bothan Rifleman/Ranger, but meh...
Since you are proposing this, why not take the effort to show how you think it could possibly be balanced?
General Ranged Accuracy
General Melee Accuracy
General Ranged Defense
General Melee Defense
General Ranged Speed
General Melee Speed
If these all co-exist within branches of Ranger, then they will be meager at best to "prevent dabblers."
It's good that people will try to think of a logical reason for the pre-reqs, and its nice they can make them fit. For those that disagree with whatever pre-req is required, you have to realise it's about the balance and conotations when compared to other professions: How they work with each other combined, and how they work against each other in PVP.
It's a huge juggling act that is difficult to maintain. Rather than complain that Ranger's may be getting carbines, consider why they may be getting carbines as opposed to anything else.
Let's look at this logically from a more realistic perspective rather than a gaming one:
Rangers (as they will be) will logically be trained in use of a gun. It's fairly essential to their role. While some may prefer to use other methods of combat (like Teris-kasi), it is not a requirement of their training as a Ranger. However, general use of an appropriate weapon is.
Riflesare suited to long-ranged combat, more in a supporting role assuming there are allies between you and the enemy, for picking off targets from a distance.
Pistols are suited to close-quarter fire-fights, light to carry and would be perfect but for the lack of 'punch' required in a military role.
Carbines are a combination of the two. They have the firepower, are lightweight and are suited to a number of different roles.
Ranged Support, certainly in name, does not suit the role ofa Ranger. They are not a support class military-wise. They are first into the fray, gathering intelligence, doing recon or hit-and-fade missions. They would not be seen at the back of the troopcolumn, picking off targets from a distance.
Game-wise this tree isn't of any use unless you are using some form of ranged weapon skill anyway. Unless you think you should have the ability to 'overpower shot' your sword. It would be unfair to make it a requirement, as the ranged support tree can not be used as a stand-alone set of skills. If you decided you wanted to go Ranger/TKM. Those Ranged Support skills could never be used, even if you wanted to use them. Carbines however, will always be usable. All you have to do is pick up a gun - something all Rangers should be able to do.
coldreboot wrote:
It would be unfair to make it a requirement, as the ranged support tree can not be used as a stand-alone set of skills. If you decided you wanted to go Ranger/TKM. Those Ranged Support skills could never be used, even if you wanted to use them. Carbines however, will always be usable. All you have to do is pick up a gun - something all Rangers should be able to do.
Erm... I'm sorry but you're wrong.
Carbines IV will benefit you if you pick up a carbine weapon.
Ranged support will benefit you if you pick up any ranged weapon.
Since you rule out a melee pre-req of the bat. Ranged Suport IV would be the most fair pre-req in your vision. Since Rifleman, Carbineer and Pistoleer all need to pick up that branch anyway, it's a pre-req for all 3 elite ranged combat professions.
Oculus wrote:
coldreboot wrote:
It would be unfair to make it a requirement, as the ranged support tree can not be used as a stand-alone set of skills. If you decided you wanted to go Ranger/TKM. Those Ranged Support skills could never be used, even if you wanted to use them. Carbines however, will always be usable. All you have to do is pick up a gun - something all Rangers should be able to do.
Erm... I'm sorry but you're wrong.
Carbines IV will benefit you if you pick up a carbine weapon.
Ranged support will benefit you if you pick up any ranged weapon.
Since you rule out a melee pre-req of the bat. Ranged Suport IV would be the most fair pre-req in your vision. Since Rifleman, Carbineer and Pistoleer all need to pick up that branch anyway, it's a pre-req for all 3 elite ranged combat professions.
I was addressing one of the main arguments against the carbineer pre-req, which was 'what if you don't want to be a marksman, what if you want to be a brawler'. I was saying that Ranged Support wouldn't add anything to that field (brawling)at all, where as at least with Carbineer you always have the option of picking upa gun (carbine) should the desire/need arise.
Regardless, your discounting the bulk of post which lists plenty of other reasons as to why Carbines would be the best choice.
A Ranger's basic training would consist of use of an appropriate weapon regardless of where that Ranger chose to concentrate his/her abilities
Message Edited by coldreboot on 09-27-2005 11:15 AM
coldreboot wrote:
I was addressing one of the main arguments against the carbineer pre-req, which was 'what if you don't want to be a marksman, what if you want to be a brawler'. I was saying that Ranged Support wouldn't add anything to that field (brawling)at all, where as at least with Carbineer you always have the option of picking upa gun (carbine) should the desire/need arise.
I'm going to goin wildly out on a limb here and say that the melee Rangers would much rather have no skills by picking up a gun (keeping a 2 scout tree pre-req) and have a lot of skillpoints to pick up, rather than have a few minor abilities with a gun and have only 9 skillpoints left. The skills in question are barely more usefull than simply using ranged shot, and you lose the ability to pick up some medic.
Regardless, your discounting the bulk of post which lists plenty of other reasons as to why Carbines would be the best choice.
It would be the best choice for some Ranged people, but not for all ranged Rangers and certainly not for melee Rangers. Carbineer pre-reqs makes pistoleers and rifleman waste 14 skillpoints and makes melee Rangers burn 29 skillpoints. Ranged support makes no ranged profession burn any skillpoints any more than any other, but it still makes melee Rangers burn 29 skillpoints. So clearly, it's not the best choice for everyone. Considering WIldBil2Me's poll shows that a large amount of people use Rifles as their primary weapon, perhaps you should rethink that.
A Ranger's basic training would consist of use of an appropriate weapon regardless of where that Ranger chose to concentrate his/her abilities
hmm...it seems to me that if a ranger is free to choose their weapon, then they would be able to choose melee or ranged. furthermore, if people want to restrict them to ranged profession, they wouldn't be trained in weapon-specific skills, they'd be trained in general shooting tequniques (Ranged Support IV)
coldreboot wrote:
Ranged Support, certainly in name, does not suit the role of a Ranger. They are not a support class military-wise. They are first into the fray, gathering intelligence, doing recon or hit-and-fade missions. They would not be seen at the back of the troop column, picking off targets from a distance.
Contradiction in terms there - First in, intel gathering is military support.
coldreboot wrote:
Regardless, your discounting the bulk of post which lists plenty of other reasons as to why Carbines would be the best choice.
He's not ignoring them, it's just that those posts are in the minority. Even all the Rangers who used Ranged weapons don't want to be tied to Carbines. We've never been tied to a particular weapon class, neither has any other ranged hybrid, apart from Smuggler (and just because they have undesirable prerequisits, doesn't mean everybody else should too).
Rifles are suited to long-ranged combat, more in a supporting role assuming there are allies between you and the enemy, for picking off targets from a distance.
So this is an appropriate method of support, no problems there for a Rifle Ranger. It fits in without new stealth skills. A Ranger/Rifleman could use invisibiltiy to find a place to snipe from, then use rifle cover for the actual sniping, then use invisibility to escape.
Pistols are suited to close-quarter fire-fights, light to carry and would be perfect but for the lack of 'punch' required in a military role.
A Ranger who is "stealing" intelligence would need a close quarters weapon that is light to carry.
arbines are a combination of the two. They have the firepower, are lightweight and are suited to a number of different roles.
Yes they are, no reason to never use one, just not all of the time.
Game-wise this tree isn't of any use unless you are using some form of ranged weapon skill anyway. Unless you think you should have the ability to 'overpower shot' your sword. It would be unfair to make it a requirement, as the ranged support tree can not be used as a stand-alone set of skills. If you decided you wanted to go Ranger/TKM. Those Ranged Support skills could never be used, even if you wanted to use them. Carbines however, will always be usable. All you have to do is pick up a gun - something all Rangers should be able to do.
I seriously doubt that a melee ranger who had spent skill points on melee combat skill would ever want to use a gun, with which they'd be mediocre with at best. Especially when they use stealth to disappear as a defencesive measure. Having said that, Ranged Support 4 wouldn't stop them "picking up a gun". Ranged Support 4 will grant anyone with +30 General Ranged Accuracy.
If we stuck with RS4 as a prerequisit, then we'd be a jack of all trades with all weapons - i.e. we could adapt to a situation by using different weapons.
I admire your spirit though. However, if you switch to using Carbines against your wishes, what are you going to do with your carbine? The devs have not (so far) included any special skill to use with a carbine.
Even if I was a brawler I would rather have Ranged Support IV than Carbines IV.
coldreboot wrote:
I was addressing one of the main arguments against the carbineer pre-req, which was 'what if you don't want to be a marksman, what if you want to be a brawler'. I was saying that Ranged Support wouldn't add anything to that field (brawling) at all, where as at least with Carbineer you always have the option of picking up a gun (carbine) should the desire/need arise.Regardless, your discounting the bulk of post which lists plenty of other reasons as to why Carbines would be the best choice.
A Ranger's basic training would consist of use of an appropriate weapon regardless of where that Ranger chose to concentrate his/her abilities
Message Edited by coldreboot on 09-27-200511:15 AM
Why? Because Ranged Support will help me regardless of what ranged weapon i pick up should the desire/need arise. Carbines IV only helps if I pick up a carbine.
How is limiting the ranged weapon choice for a brawler better?
Regardless, your discounting the bulk of post which lists plenty of other reasons as to why Carbines would be the best choice.
A Ranger's basic training would consist of use of an appropriate weapon regardless of where that Ranger chose to concentrate his/her abilities
I'm not discounting anything but I'm beginning to think you don't know which mods the Ranged Support branch gives.
By your logic, Rifles or Pistol would be just as "good" a pre-req as Carbines. All 3 would however limit a Ranger to 1 specific type of weapon f they wanted most bang for their SP.
On the other hand, Ranged Support is allready the pre-req for every elite/hybrid ranged profession. So no current ranged template would be forced to pick up a branch they didn't "need" in order to meet the pre-req from the Marksman profession.
Message Edited by Oculus on 09-27-2005 04:07 PM
groundcrew wrote:
Pistols is a pre req for smuggler and no one complanes. I doubt having carbs as a pre req will be all that bad.
Well, to be fair, Smugglers have had pistols as a prereq for quite a long time (prior to CU included, if I recall correctly). We've had a lot of time to adapt to a specific weapon set, and now we're having a different set of prerequisites very different from before. I don't think we would have had anyone arguing if they had removed 2 lines from Scout for the Ranger prereqs; but since one line seems likely to be in an entirely different novice profession, we run into conflicts. What we're seeing here is likely similar to what Swordsmen, Fencers, Pikesmen and TKAs had issues with when the CU hit and they discovered that they suddenly needed another line in Brawler-which it should be noted was at least a novice profession they had already had boxes in.