Ranger Archive

Thread: Carbineer Pre-Req: RIDICULOUS

DaveG
Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:01 pm
#14

Really, any profession that grants combat level should grant combat mods, scout included.

The New Ranger should ideally be all generic combat mods because ideally we should be free to choose which weapon we use.

If scout had combat mods, then Ranger could without needing Marksman pre-requisits.



Freelance hunter and pilot - Available for hire.
Correcting the timeline, one Jedi at a time.

Sheriff of Mos Aga'me, 1KM West of Mos Eisely, Tatooine, Farstar. IGN: DaveG
I didn't use buffs or uber armour, so why did the combat revamp have to spoil my game?
John Smedley and SOE: Reap what you sow
DaveG
Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:25 pm
#15


WildBil2Me wrote:


DaveG wrote:
Really, any profession that grants combat level should grant combat mods, scout included.

The New Ranger should ideally be all generic combat mods because ideally we should be free to choose which weapon we use.

If scout had combat mods, then Ranger could without needing Marksman pre-requisits.

At what point do stacked generic combat mods become redundant though?

I do like this idea - I'm just not familiar with how the generic mods react when they get stacked to a certain point...




When you say redundant, are you asking about skill caps? I'm not totally sure, but in general the higher you go, the less of an effect it has, along the lines of a "diminishing returns" model, if I'm not mistaken.

The thing is though, generic skills are better than specific skills because you're not tied to specific weapons so much. Hypotheticall, say you went for BH and Ranger (assuming ranger gets generic mods), then you've got mostly generic mods, so much that specific skill mods may not make much difference. Although by that point you'll have spent so many skill points that you won't be able to obtain much in the way of specific skill points anyway!

From a roleplay point of view, if we're being slated as spies then generic skill mods are better anyway. Such a role should be fairly versatile in what weapons it uses. Pistols for close quater combat while intel gathering (i.e. using /steal). Carbines for mid-range combat support (guerilla warfar), and Rifles for assassination/stealth attacks.



I wrote all this before I realised what you were asking, but it took me so long to write I've left it in


The way general skills interact with weapon specific skills is quite neat actually, and you can see it at work if you call up your character sheet (ctrl-c).

If you look at your character sheet while you have no weapon equipped, you will see the sums of you general accuracy, speed and defences (ranged and melee). When you equip a weapon, your specific skill mods for that weapon are then added on to your general skills.

For example assume you have a general ranged accuracy of 215, a pistol accuracy of +40, a carbine accuracy of +65 and a rifle accuracy of +85.

Then your total Ranged accuracy while holding each weapon would follow as:

Pistol Equipped = 215+40 = 255
Carbine Equipped = 215+65 = 280
Rifle Equipped = 215+85 = 300

The same applies to speed.

For defences your Weapon Defence (i.e. Rifle Defence) are added on to both your ranged and melee defence while you have the respective weapon equipped.

Say you have ranged defence of 185 and melee defence of 120. Then say your "rifle defence" is +30, then while you're holding a rifle, your ranged defence goes upto 205, and your melee defence goes upto 150.

For more examples of this sort of thing at work, click here.

Message Edited by DaveG on 09-27-2005 01:35 AM



Freelance hunter and pilot - Available for hire.
Correcting the timeline, one Jedi at a time.

Sheriff of Mos Aga'me, 1KM West of Mos Eisely, Tatooine, Farstar. IGN: DaveG
I didn't use buffs or uber armour, so why did the combat revamp have to spoil my game?
John Smedley and SOE: Reap what you sow
WildBil2Me
Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:44 pm
#16

I was concerned with the issue of diminishing returns yeah.


I've been trying to chase that info down since the CU lol. Thanks for the heads up.



Col. Wyndinn Maer
Antarian Rangers: Wanderhome
SWGRanger.com
Tarnak_Archvold
Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:27 pm
#17

Lets look at Doctor. Pre-Req is Medic 4040, combat bonuses are +50 Range defence, and + 50 Melee Defence. Conclusion? Defences do not require a combat pre-req.

Now lets looks at Combat Medic. Pre-Req is Medic 0400 Marksman 0004, combat bonuses are +50 Range defence, and + 50 Melee Defence. Conclusion? A combat pre-req does not guarantee Speed and accuracy modifiers

And all the DEV's said was that they was TESTING ranger out with combat mods, not what mods or how much. For all we know they talking about defences and nothing else.

Arguing for a marksman pre-req, throe pointing to some kind of system makes no sense. Clearly there are either exceptions to the rules, or there are no rules. Besides During the CU we got a CL increase with ranger, and THAT was not planes by the devs. And, we certainly did not get it by just accepting what the devs put out as a concept they had in development.
So what to say that we can not fight for staying a elite scout profession, and still get combat modifiers? What do we loose by trying?

We are talking about what is best for the profession, not what is best for a select few of us. And as a Carbineer/Ranger I have no personal stake in another combination, I only have the ranger communities best at heart.




"Once upon a time Rangers roamed the galaxies... Before the dark times, before the NGE. "
Once a Ranger, Always a Ranger.
Rolfie
Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:46 pm
#18


Actually Helios said Ranger would be somewhere around what Bounty Hunter is.








Rolfie Master Ranger, Bantha Poo FTW

DaveG
Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:15 pm
#19



Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
Lets look at Doctor. Pre-Req is Medic 4040, combat bonuses are +50 Range defence, and + 50 Melee Defence. Conclusion? Defences do not require a combat pre-req.

Exactly!

Now, what do medic, doctor, scout and ranger have in common? ... Combat Level!

Medic may not get combat mods, but I think Scout should get them because of trapping. Then if we have combat mods in scout, there's no reason for to need marksman skills to get them.



Freelance hunter and pilot - Available for hire.
Correcting the timeline, one Jedi at a time.

Sheriff of Mos Aga'me, 1KM West of Mos Eisely, Tatooine, Farstar. IGN: DaveG
I didn't use buffs or uber armour, so why did the combat revamp have to spoil my game?
John Smedley and SOE: Reap what you sow
SeanBlader
Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:29 pm
#20

I don't think it's any more rediculous than Squad Leaders requirement for Pistols exp for two thirds of their profession.

If the Pre-req is 2 trees in scout, what would be the experience type for the Ranger boxes?




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MohdriDarkstar
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:28 am
#21

I have never played a Ranger.


I did, however, have to make Master Scout to become a Bounty Hunter back in the old days. Scout/Ranger has always seemed rather useless to me except for the terrain negotiation and burst run efficiency. Nothing else worked. Camps had no purpose, traps didn't do anything, etc.


Now they have a new-fangled Ranger Revamp. I like the direction they started to take with this! Then the whole thing got derailed by what I can only guess is the influence of some deranged, retraded developer that got hired only because his dad is upper-level management. Or something. (Obviously this person or persons don't actually play the game themselves.)


First off, Ranger should _not_ be forced into a ranged combat role. In fact, the only requirements for Ranger should be found with the damn Scout skill-tree.


I can just as easily see this covert ops-type profession being a melee combatant as a ranged combatant. As a ranged combatant, if anything I see the Ranger being the hidden sniper waiting to take out his mark. As a melee combatant, the Ranger becomes somewhat of a ninja or something, which is very cool.


Look, carbines are the most unpopular weapon choice in the game. You don't fix that by requiring a cool profession, like the new Ranger, to have to become the least popular ranged profession, the Carbineer. It is NOT a good fix to someone who actually plays the game and wants the freedom of being able to play their character the way they want to, again obviously someone is making these decisions amongst the developers who does _not_ actually play Star Wars Galaxies.In a word: ridiculous.


And do something to make carbines a little more interesting, by the way. As it is, Pistoleers have all the great specials good for PvP, and Rifleman have all the front-loaded damage. Carbineers are something inbetween and not near as sexy as either.

BioEngine
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:32 am
#22


Then remove all combat modifiers and be done with it?


Because no branches in Scout would grant the proficiency to increase your accuracy / defense with weaponry unless they themselves had those founding attributes.

Message Edited by BioEngine on 09-26-2005 02:32 PM



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Stamina
MohdriDarkstar
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:34 am
#23

Yes, remove combat modifiers within Ranger. Or just grant equal melee/ranged modifiers. That doesn't take much imagination, don't you think?
BioEngine
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:36 am
#24







MohdriDarkstar wrote:
Yes, remove combat modifiers within Ranger. Or just grant equal melee/ranged modifiers. That doesn't take much imagination, don't you think?





When BH's asked for areatrack, what was the argument? None of their founding prerequisited would merit that.


When Jedi / Riflemen got concealment, our argument was the same.




All arguments we use to protect this profession must be applied to it in turn.


You want trees of Scout? You don't get combat modifiers. Simple as that.


Which is why we were Scout+, all trees in Ranger built upon trees in Scout.

Message Edited by BioEngine on 09-26-2005 02:50 PM



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Stamina
MohdriDarkstar
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:39 am
#25

Dude, you're funny.


Hey, does Squad Leader have anything but a Scout requirement?


Does Squad Leader have combat modifiers?


Duh-uh!


BioEngine
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:50 am
#26






MohdriDarkstar wrote:

Dude, you're funny.


Hey, does Squad Leader have anything but a Scout requirement?


Does Squad Leader have combat modifiers?


Duh-uh!







Yes, it's called Ranged Support IV.


Yes, they do have general combat modifiers for ranged combat.


And that is why they have Pistols xp required in the branches, and Combat xp for the novice box.



/Plunk.





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