Ranger Archive
Thread: Ranger Weapon's and Certs.
Hakai
Tue May 10, 2005 8:42 pm
#27
JBMat wrote:
Scalding sarcasm? Sorta
"Rangers are not a combat profession." That was said so many times I heard it in my sleep, yet I continued to rail against the idea until some Devs sat up and took notice. Some of my arguments were the total HAM damage I would cause just going out to check my harvestors (if it moves, I killed it) and the "ok, so technically we can just harvest without killing, is that the idea here?".
Anyhow - I am glad that through Owens efforts the Devs woke up and granted us "quasi-combat" status.
As to the weapons certs - I think that we need to get defensive mods and maybe one offensive special that can be used with both ranged and melee (the lethalhit idea - see previous posts).
JB
as i've said before. i think they're still pissed you made em see we were a combat class/based. lol
NJS
Tue May 10, 2005 10:34 pm
#28
I think to give us a slight PvP edge we should maybe get some kind of observation ability that helps us spot people under concealment and foce cloak. Also have some of our traps work on PCs like sonic, flash and biolum. I don't know if they could balance it into PvP correctly, but I just think that would be a cool ability.
Oh and some melee defense would be nice. 80% of the time I hunt they do melee damage.
Oh and some melee defense would be nice. 80% of the time I hunt they do melee damage.
Creaturetaimer
Wed May 11, 2005 4:38 pm
#29
Vorpaks wrote:
Wyldcat309 wrote:
Ok. Master CM's get one.... Master Smuggler's get one.... Master Squad Leader's get one.... Why not Master Rangers???
I think a weapon cert is a little redundant at this point don't you? If we get high enough level - which usually a MRanger willl, you can basically use almost any weapon in the game or its equivalent. How many weapons do you need? (Ok, ok, dumb question)
I would much rather see AgonThalia's suggestion of Ranger specific specials than a Ranger specific weapon we can only use with the specials from our combat mix. For me personally as a MRanger/MCH I can use almost any wepon in the game but my most used special is placed shot from marksman carbines I. Sad, sad, sad.
I think of our traps as "Ranger specific weapons" now if we could just use them in humainoids
Message Edited by Creaturetaimer on 05-11-2005 06:40 PM
Owen-Lars
Thu May 12, 2005 12:35 am
#30
I agree with the majority here that id rather see something along the lines of specials (ranged and melee) than a weapon. If we were to get a weapon cert (for instance a master box requirement cert) we would realy need two, a ranged and a melee weapon.
Some specials i would like to see are ones that specialise towards defensive and crowd controlling abilities. All are skills that can be used on creatures, npcs or players.
Hunting Stance (Buff): Grants 100 defense and20% damage increase vs creatures. Lasts 1 minute.
Spinal Crush (Mez): Aprecise melee attackthat shatters the spinal column of the foe stopping all movement and actions for 20 seconds. Cancelsupondamage taken.
Expose Weaknesses (Debuff): Through the use of intel gathering the ranger pinpoints the enemies weaknesses reducing armour protection causing the target to bleed.
Obviously these would be supported by a large line of ground and thrown traps reducing effectivenessand crowd controlling even more.
Rhyeal
Thu May 12, 2005 4:44 pm
#31
the hard bit with Ranger is this: we are susposed to be in an advanced civilization that hunts with blasts of energy yet also kills with cold steel. To meld these two realistically into a profession that still relies on its needle compass and hyper-space ready biomechanical GPS arms to guide them while traversing nature is a daunting challenge (not to mention that those that just use the compass or just the arm have to be satasfied as well). This is easy to do in code, but from the art side, I think we need to help the Art Dept. a bit if we can come up with a few sketches as well. I was thinking the other day on the whole Ranger bow idea, and, let me tell you, it is hard to find a design that a) looks cool, b) looks like a bow and c) looks futuristic (more than just a camoflague compound bow). Please realize that any new item we ask for will have to meet these standards or the entire community will not endorse it. Given SOE's track record with Rangers, I know that we will need 100% of the community backing EVERY idea to get it put in place.
My 20 creds (inflation...2 creds isnt what it used to be)
Hakai
Thu May 12, 2005 8:34 pm
#32
Rhyeal wrote:
the hard bit with Ranger is this: we are susposed to be in an advanced civilization that hunts with blasts of energy yet also kills with cold steel. To meld these two realistically into a profession that still relies on its needle compass and hyper-space ready biomechanical GPS arms to guide them while traversing nature is a daunting challenge (not to mention that those that just use the compass or just the arm have to be satasfied as well). This is easy to do in code, but from the art side, I think we need to help the Art Dept. a bit if we can come up with a few sketches as well. I was thinking the other day on the whole Ranger bow idea, and, let me tell you, it is hard to find a design that a) looks cool, b) looks like a bow and c) looks futuristic (more than just a camoflague compound bow). Please realize that any new item we ask for will have to meet these standards or the entire community will not endorse it. Given SOE's track record with Rangers, I know that we will need 100% of the community backing EVERY idea to get it put in place.
My 20 creds (inflation...2 creds isnt what it used to be)
or they could just give us the hat.......yes...the hat would suffice.........
not really, but i want it dammit!!
Rhyeal
Thu May 12, 2005 8:36 pm
#33
NO! Must...have...bow... and a hat too
Hakai wrote:
Rhyeal wrote:
the hard bit with Ranger is this: we are susposed to be in an advanced civilization that hunts with blasts of energy yet also kills with cold steel. To meld these two realistically into a profession that still relies on its needle compass and hyper-space ready biomechanical GPS arms to guide them while traversing nature is a daunting challenge (not to mention that those that just use the compass or just the arm have to be satasfied as well). This is easy to do in code, but from the art side, I think we need to help the Art Dept. a bit if we can come up with a few sketches as well. I was thinking the other day on the whole Ranger bow idea, and, let me tell you, it is hard to find a design that a) looks cool, b) looks like a bow and c) looks futuristic (more than just a camoflague compound bow). Please realize that any new item we ask for will have to meet these standards or the entire community will not endorse it. Given SOE's track record with Rangers, I know that we will need 100% of the community backing EVERY idea to get it put in place.
My 20 creds (inflation...2 creds isnt what it used to be)
or they could just give us the hat.......yes...the hat would suffice.........
not really, but i want it dammit!!
JBMat
Fri May 13, 2005 7:28 am
#34
Traps are fine, though I wish they caused some damage to the creatures. Ok, I can buy the fact they are our "specific" weapons, until I realize the two Ranger traps suck and I never use them. So we benefit how from them?
I would like to see Rangers get a "Creature only - random chance (see below) - Chance to One shot/blow kill"
Ranger Rick stands there and either shoots or melees his creature target. Creature - we are creature centric - no NPCs, no Players, creatures, Disagree if you want, you will lose with the Devs.
Based on - Ranger Rick's combat class (the higher the better), his current Ranger standing (Master only gets this chance), his current status with the weapon he is using (Master gets the highest chance), the Creature's combat class (the higher the less chance of landing the hit) and any resists to the weapons Ranger Rick is using (example -Peko Albs were 100% kinetic resistant - a TKM has 0% chance of landing a one hit/shot kill).
The chances are slim to low and sometimes none. This would not be an everyday thing, even on really easy prey, like paralopes which I can already one shot drop. Masters are rare, so the chances of the shot are rare. The better the Ranger is with a weapon the better the chance. You get the idea. This is a once a month, maybe, deal here. Probably less.
Justification - Rangers hunt for a living. We should know animal weaknesses (side note, what is up with examine?). I hunt 5000 toturs in a month, I damn sure should know their weaknesses even through trial and error experimentation. And all we are asking for is a chance.
JB
JascoSmlee
Fri May 13, 2005 7:43 am
#35
Rhyeal wrote:
the hard bit with Ranger is this: we are susposed to be in an advanced civilization that hunts with blasts of energy yet also kills with cold steel. To meld these two realistically into a profession that still relies on its needle compass and hyper-space ready biomechanical GPS arms to guide them while traversing nature is a daunting challenge (not to mention that those that just use the compass or just the arm have to be satasfied as well). This is easy to do in code, but from the art side, I think we need to help the Art Dept. a bit if we can come up with a few sketches as well. I was thinking the other day on the whole Ranger bow idea, and, let me tell you, it is hard to find a design that a) looks cool, b) looks like a bow and c) looks futuristic (more than just a camoflague compound bow). Please realize that any new item we ask for will have to meet these standards or the entire community will not endorse it. Given SOE's track record with Rangers, I know that we will need 100% of the community backing EVERY idea to get it put in place.
My 20 creds (inflation...2 creds isnt what it used to be)
I'd prefer something like a bowcaster rather than a Robin Hood style bow myself. There's already a new Wookie pistol that looks like a mini'caster in game now. Still I think would be better off trying to get our traps beefed up A LOT and also gaining some general combat skill mods. I also thought about maybe granting us one thing no other combat prof has - weapon hindrence mitigation. Heck, I'm a Ranger, master of any terrain and you're telling me I can't run fast just 'cause my hands are full! 
Cryos_Merovingian
Fri May 13, 2005 8:02 am
#36
First off, there is some great discussion here and lots of great ideas.
As I started to read through this, the debates about having: a)specials b)defensive/offensive mods c)weapon cert. seemed off to me because they really don't have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, they never really are. Most lines of a combat prof will grant one, two, or all three these things. Therefore, I don't think we should be discussing which ONE we want, but how best to provide a balance among all THREE.
Weapon cert: I was initially thinking that we should get a weapon cert. Smugglers have a pistol cert not because they NEED a weapon necessarily, but because, hey, why not. The devs stated that a pistol was chosen becuase it seemed to best fit the role of the smuggler. IMO, and while I'm not a rifleman, I think that hands down a master level rifle cert would fit very nicely with the role of ranger. This was my thinking, but then I came around to the idea of traps as our weapon cert.
Weapons, Mods, and Specials - finding the balance
I think that treating traps as the ranger weapon works quite well - so long that there is a MUCH more robust trapping line which could be used effectively in combat and is comparable to weapon certs at, say, master smuggler. I think that we should be granted MODS in combat and that this could be coupled with, say, two good Ranger specials.
I agree with JB - we are creature centric. While you can PvP, ranger truly is founded on PvE and trying to balance that with PvP needs is just messy and will put us into a debate that will never get anywhere.
Rangers ARE a combat class. We have skills that simply CANNOT be used without entering into combat (traps, creature-to-hit bonus) and this fact is simply undeniable. Harvesting and Camps do not REQUIRE us to enter into combat, but that's not 4 lines of ranger, now is it.
Finally, I think it is critical that we are granted a special One-shot-kill ability when in combat with any member of Team H*wtp*nts.
As I started to read through this, the debates about having: a)specials b)defensive/offensive mods c)weapon cert. seemed off to me because they really don't have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, they never really are. Most lines of a combat prof will grant one, two, or all three these things. Therefore, I don't think we should be discussing which ONE we want, but how best to provide a balance among all THREE.
Weapon cert: I was initially thinking that we should get a weapon cert. Smugglers have a pistol cert not because they NEED a weapon necessarily, but because, hey, why not. The devs stated that a pistol was chosen becuase it seemed to best fit the role of the smuggler. IMO, and while I'm not a rifleman, I think that hands down a master level rifle cert would fit very nicely with the role of ranger. This was my thinking, but then I came around to the idea of traps as our weapon cert.
Weapons, Mods, and Specials - finding the balance
I think that treating traps as the ranger weapon works quite well - so long that there is a MUCH more robust trapping line which could be used effectively in combat and is comparable to weapon certs at, say, master smuggler. I think that we should be granted MODS in combat and that this could be coupled with, say, two good Ranger specials.
I agree with JB - we are creature centric. While you can PvP, ranger truly is founded on PvE and trying to balance that with PvP needs is just messy and will put us into a debate that will never get anywhere.
Rangers ARE a combat class. We have skills that simply CANNOT be used without entering into combat (traps, creature-to-hit bonus) and this fact is simply undeniable. Harvesting and Camps do not REQUIRE us to enter into combat, but that's not 4 lines of ranger, now is it.
Finally, I think it is critical that we are granted a special One-shot-kill ability when in combat with any member of Team H*wtp*nts.
Jolandir
Fri May 13, 2005 9:47 am
#37
Vorpaks wrote:
I think a weapon cert is a little redundant at this point don't you? If we get high enough level - which usually a MRanger willl, you can basically use almost any weapon in the game or its equivalent. How many weapons do you need? (Ok, ok, dumb question)
I would much rather see AgonThalia's suggestion of Ranger specific specials than a Ranger specific weapon we can only use with the specials from our combat mix. For me personally as a MRanger/MCH I can use almost any wepon in the game but my most used special is placed shot from marksman carbines I. Sad, sad, sad.
I would much rather see AgonThalia's suggestion of Ranger specific specials than a Ranger specific weapon we can only use with the specials from our combat mix. For me personally as a MRanger/MCH I can use almost any wepon in the game but my most used special is placed shot from marksman carbines I. Sad, sad, sad.
You are kidding right?! The point is have everything including Squad Leaders, Doc, CMs (who have far less reason to fight then we do) have received signature weapons. We are a fighting profession since everything in this game aggros, that is not hunting it is warfare. I agree totally we need specials. We should not have to go up any combat profession just to get specials. The point is we are constantly forgotten and snubbed. We are not asking for special treatment here we are requesting equal treatment. Why should we not be treated fairly. Docs never have to go into a potentially dangerous place if they don't want to and can achieve their mastery of there profession this way. The same is true of combat medics, though for the life of me I don't understand why you want to be CM and not ever be where the fighting is going on, but none the less you can achieve this without ever going into harms way, and yet both of these professions get specials and signature weapons. I don't believe this is true of Squad Leaders though. So then why shouldn't we since we are always in harms way?
We are not asking that others not get them, we are not putting down other professions, we are simply asking for fair and equal treatment.
I realize, in amazement, we are still not considered a "combat class" but we are a "fighting class", and I totally agree we are not scanvengers, but hunters, and no you can not successfully get to Master ranger by only harvesting. I guess he made it without using traps, but I would like to know how. But even if you technically could do this, the possibiltiy of this doesn't exist because of they way every creature in this game is designed. They aggro so everytime and it is rare anymore that they don't aggro in mass, so it really is impossible to get to Master Ranger without fighting, which happens all the time.
Vorpaks, we are the only profession that still has to master a basic profession any more. There use to be others, such as Docs, Commandos, and BH, but none of them have to do this anymore, except us. So we now master Scout to try and Master Ranger thus using up a lot more Skill Points then any other profession just trying to get there (and no I do not mind having to master scout except for the fact that we lose tons of options because of the need to use so many skill points that no other profession has to do now).
Then they don't give us any specials or signature weapons at all. Yes we could survive without signature weapons, but so could Doctors, CMs, Squad Leaders, in fact every combat profession can survive without signature weapons with the possible exception of Commando since they don't get any direct specials, all their specials are built into their weapons, so in essence they have to have signature weapons. The others do not need to have any signature weapons under the current system that de-certified 80% or more of the weapons in this game now.
This doesn't even get into not having camo making us nearly invisible and disappear off of the radar, which we were told the game couldn't do and if could they would not give it to us, but they didn't have any trouble giving it to another profession (and no I am not upset that they got it, just that we are not allowed the same treatment. I am glad they got it!). We have repeatedly asked that our traps work on npcs and players, and we were told no, but everyone eleses specials work on us, which blind, dizzy, root, knockdown and so forth, and now while on my swoop npcs either used specials or traps to root my swoop as I was speeding by to a stand still and then swarmed me! Right! Ok if the dumbnpc can do it, why can't we root and stop players swoops, entangle their AT-STs (I am using this as an example since Rebels don't having anything to compare with this so-called "pet"). This is very Star Wars oriented. My goodness Gungans and Ewoks used traps in the movies and took out attack droids and AT-STs, Luke basicly uses a snare trap which entagles AT-ATs in the second movie and yet we can't do this! Why? You mean Gungans and Ewoks are more intelligent and more capable then Rangers?????
So in order to get specials and possibly some of the best fighting weapons in the game you have to go up or master a third profession just to try and stay somewhat even with all the so-called "combat" professions or even "combat support" professions. Rangers are basically in this game a support profession to the non-combat support professions, and yet we fight all the time. This is Star "Wars" (emphasizes on wars), we are suppose to have all the known galaxies currently in a state of war, which has always meant that ranger types have adapted their tremendous skills into use for combat, and very successfully so, to the degree now that almost any modern army teaches their people, how to use camo, how to make traps to use against enemy personal and thier assualt vehicles, and how to survive off the land if they can not get supplies to them.
The whole point isn't that we need them, it is that we want to be treated fairly and equally with all the other profession. We are not asking to be the new super soloists, although when it comes to creatures in SWG we should be the closest thing to it. So OK we don't have to have it, but why shouldn't we be treated fairly!
Jolandir
Calculus_Entropy
Fri May 13, 2005 10:25 am
#38
Have you people seen the stats on the Smuggler, Squadleader, & CM weapons (Docs don't have one)? I have yet to see one that is better than the non-certed (CL is the cert, so any profession can use it)Pistoleer weapons (I used Pistoleer to compare because all those profs got pistols). I am sure we would get the same treatment.
On a similar note, many of the best weapons only depend on CL. If we can use our proposed specials with any weapon, why tie ourselves to one weapon? Who here can give me an advantage to having our own weapon cert rather than using a weapon that only had CL as a cert?
Why do Rangers refuse to think critically about this stuff? It's always OMG, we need to be just like everyone else!!! Why would we ever want to be unigue?!?!?!? Same thing with the SP cost for Ranger. The posts about how horrible it is to be a Ranger are tired. If you don't like it (the skills vs. how much it costs), don't be one!
We have the opportunity to shape our profession, so why would we want it shaped like everything else? A big complaint about the CU is that it resembles the other games out there; it isn't unique. Why do Rangers strive to be the same as other profs?
On a similar note, many of the best weapons only depend on CL. If we can use our proposed specials with any weapon, why tie ourselves to one weapon? Who here can give me an advantage to having our own weapon cert rather than using a weapon that only had CL as a cert?
Why do Rangers refuse to think critically about this stuff? It's always OMG, we need to be just like everyone else!!! Why would we ever want to be unigue?!?!?!? Same thing with the SP cost for Ranger. The posts about how horrible it is to be a Ranger are tired. If you don't like it (the skills vs. how much it costs), don't be one!
We have the opportunity to shape our profession, so why would we want it shaped like everything else? A big complaint about the CU is that it resembles the other games out there; it isn't unique. Why do Rangers strive to be the same as other profs?
Cryos_Merovingian
Fri May 13, 2005 10:36 am
#39
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Have you people seen the stats on the Smuggler, Squadleader, & CM weapons (Docs don't have one)? I have yet to see one that is better than the non-certed (CL is the cert, so any profession can use it)Pistoleer weapons (I used Pistoleer to compare because all those profs got pistols). I am sure we would get the same treatment.
On a similar note, many of the best weapons only depend on CL. If we can use our proposed specials with any weapon, why tie ourselves to one weapon? Who here can give me an advantage to having our own weapon cert rather than using a weapon that only had CL as a cert?
Why do Rangers refuse to think critically about this stuff? It's always OMG, we need to be just like everyone else!!! Why would we ever want to be unigue?!?!?!? Same thing with the SP cost for Ranger. The posts about how horrible it is to be a Ranger are tired. If you don't like it (the skills vs. how much it costs), don't be one!
We have the opportunity to shape our profession, so why would we want it shaped like everything else? A big complaint about the CU is that it resembles the other games out there; it isn't unique. Why do Rangers strive to be the same as other profs?
we do?
insofar as I can tell, a "revamp" is not in the near future.