Ranger Archive
Thread: Rangers and the CU
JuCat
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:08 am
#27
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
JuCat wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
FWIW, the Sandbox Rangers (as well as some very gracious non-Rangers) fought a valiant fight to get teh Rangers included in the CU, but ultimately the devs decided they would rather wait and give us a proper Revamp rather than what could turn out to be bandaids.
I think this was a very wise decision, because at this point it will take a miracle to fulfill the fun potential this profession has.
BTW, calc when I said "the direction this profession is being lead" I was not refering to you or Nrass. Nrass was an awesome corr, and you have more than filled his shoes..../kow
I know you weren't referring to us, I was wondering what direction you thought we were being led. If the Devs haven't defined our role, and we haven't had any changes made to our profession, how could we be led anywhere?
I'm sure you have access to more of the "fact" than the rest of us but I'll just point out a couple.
1) your statement "no Ranger is not a combat profession"
2) "creature centric" or "ultimate hunters"
3) Aug 2003 i think we all know what i mean by that.
4) Dev statement BF will never be healed outside of cantina's
5) Dev post count on the best, most mature, flameless, constructive forum on SWG site.
6) "nothing is going to happen to traps with the CU"
7) "ranger isn't being touched with the CU" which implies no combat changes are planned
Sorry, these are both incomplete and random, I'm multi-tasking here, but I'll answer your question with another question:What direction could the devs take us, given the few statements they've made regarding Rangers. My vision of Ranger is as Nemo put it above, the one that was given to use in our skill descriptions, and profession descriptions, in which our combatroles, abilitiesand usefulness are very combat specific. I just don't see SOE giving Ranger the direct impact on combat even close to that of Docs.
I do see your point, the devs have not definedtherevision ofour roles, and much could change, I just don't see it being anything close to what it could be...
Calculus_Entropy
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:19 am
#28
Ju, honestly, I think the Devs are in a position to take us in any direction they want. As far as BF healing in camps, just becuase they said it would never happen, doesn't mean it won't 
. You make some valid points though, but I think a lot of what you have described can be interpretted different ways.
. You make some valid points though, but I think a lot of what you have described can be interpretted different ways.
JuCat
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:26 am
#29
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Ju, honestly, I think the Devs are in a position to take us in any direction they want. As far as BF healing in camps, just becuase they said it would never happen, doesn't mean it won't
I must admit, if SOE's future patches, expansions, revamps, etc go live like jtl did, there may be hope. I for one am more than amazed with the way jtl was handled. Dev to player communication has gone through the roof, daily hotfixes, and mini-patches. Kuddos the SOE on that. I can deal with the bugs as long as the effort and communication continues as it has since JTL....
Oculus
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:38 am
#31
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
We all know that the Combat Upgrade is the Dev's focus right now. They are busy trying to balance the math behind the combat system and are not concerned with adding new things to non-combat professions (no, Rangers are not a Combat Profession and will not become one with the CU). Does this remove all hope of love for the Rangers in the long run? No. Immediately following the CU, there will be a series of profession revamps and we are slated to be a part of those (there is no timeline set as of yet). Let's let the devs focus on the CU as we want them to focus on Rangers when the time comes.
Thanks for your patience guys!
We might not be a combat profession but our traps are pure combat.
They apply states and cause damage just like specials and if dizzy isn't removed, changed to work on creatures or our traps changed to work on NPCs with the CU, I'm going to scream bloody murder. They've promised to look at all specials. No "creature centric" or "PvMOB only" excuse is going to cut it this time around.
Only if traps become out of balance you say? They are now! read: worthless.
Oku Kee'lus
JuCat
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:41 am
#32
BlakkStar wrote:
traps also do stun and blind (state effects)
/r yes I know, one does, the others are scout traps, and that fact hardly puts Rangers into state effect role in combat. One word - Carbineer.
JuCat
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:45 am
#33
Combat is combatis combat is combat is combat is combat. There should be no such thing a creature centric, or PvE only, such concepts are completely gating players due to there choice of profession.
Oculus wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
We all know that the Combat Upgrade is the Dev's focus right now. They are busy trying to balance the math behind the combat system and are not concerned with adding new things to non-combat professions (no, Rangers are not a Combat Profession and will not become one with the CU). Does this remove all hope of love for the Rangers in the long run? No. Immediately following the CU, there will be a series of profession revamps and we are slated to be a part of those (there is no timeline set as of yet). Let's let the devs focus on the CU as we want them to focus on Rangers when the time comes.
Thanks for your patience guys!
We might not be a combat profession but our traps are pure combat.
They apply states and cause damage just like specials and if dizzy isn't removed, changed to work on creatures or our traps changed to work on NPCs with the CU, I'm going to scream bloody murder. They've promised to look at all specials. No "creature centric" or "PvMOB only" excuse is going to cut it this time around.
Only if traps become out of balance you say? They are now! read: worthless.
Nemo0
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:47 am
#34
Well, there are some traps that do a bit of damage (like bone spurs). But, as they are not PvP, I'm guessing the Devs won't care too much about balancing them
.
.As for what the combat upgrade is meant to do:
Thunderheart said:
The Combat Upgrade is our overall effort to improve our player combat experience, including:
- Combat Balance - tuning all our numbers and the combat professions.
- Core Combat Changes - HAM improvements, Incapacitation & Death changes, Armor and more.
- Combat Additions - more special moves, new counter moves, new armors, new weapons and new crafting options.
Now, there are definately a few numbers involved with traps (range, HAM use, damage, state effect duration, effectiveness, resource cost, number in a stack, etc). Ignoring those numbers is ignoring the Combat Balance portion of this (notice that he said ALL their numbers).
We can't ask for too much in the Core Combat Changes as they are more general (although the throwing animation could probably fit in there).
As for Combat Additions, we should see something here. New traps are new weapons (not to mention that we supposedly had a few traps almost ready for us back over a year ago, including ground traps). Trap experimentation falls under new crafting options. Many skills could fall under more special moves (we have rescue, maybe something like scare at Master Ranger that works like an AoE warningshot--think Obi Wan's krayt call). PvP traps (at least for creatures) could go under counter moves (as they counter the effectiveness of other professions' moves, like blind making a fighter less accurate).
If the Devs want to follow their plan for the combat upgrade, we really should be included (at the very least we need to be in the balance portion as they can't hit all the numbers and ignore us). We really should see significant additions as we probably have the least complete of the combat trees available (Ranger Advanced Trapping is very incomplete). If they ignore Ranger here, they will fail in their goals. They might do a good job on all the other professions but it will not be complete. And we would be the only ones to suffer (unless you count all the fun that other players might miss out on).
Owen-Lars
Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:25 am
#35
FWIW, the Sandbox Rangers (as well as some very gracious non-Rangers) fought a valiant fight to get teh Rangers included in the CU, but ultimately the devs decided they would rather wait and give us a proper Revamp rather than what could turn out to be bandaids.
Although i hate to say it, this statement very much hits the mark. Ive put my all into getting us in there in some shape or form but (im not having a go at the devs) its like talking to a brick wall. The devs simply dont have enough time to revamp our profession within the time frame of the combat upgrade so all they can do is stick to their guns and put up a brick wall about what gets a revamp and what doesnt.
Im not saying i agree with it or i like it but to get the combat upgrade out in a reasonable time frame barriers need to be put up and objectives stuck to or they would have an ever expanding list of things to do. Im still hoping we can keep our ideas moving forward and our directness maintained to work on the devs in order to get some changes somehow. I wont hold my breath but im giving it my all and i will still do so until the ranger revamp hits.
The void between combat upgrade and ranger revamp has me extremely worried, not much can be done about it but that wont stop us writing til our hands bleed trying to reduce its bleakness.
I know eactly where nemo is coming from and i have a similar stand point, as do most of us, im prety much destroyed about the complete lack of ranger involvement in the cu but all we can do is keep trying and doing what we have been doing.The combat system will change, ranger will get revamped, but the gap between the two may be hard for a lot of rangers to take. I for one will be considering my future within this gap as i fear a lot of rangers will, i never thought id say that
Bah Idunno, i may stay i may not and take temp leave, the grind back up will be fun, ill wait till a later stage to make my final decision.
Oh well, hope those disapointed rangers dont take the news too hard and continue to push ideas out and make these boards what they are.
DaveG
Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:27 am
#36
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
We all know that the Combat Upgrade is the Dev's focus right now. They are busy trying to balance the math behind the combat system and are not concerned with adding new things to non-combat professions (no, Rangers are not a Combat Profession and will not become one with the CU). Does this remove all hope of love for the Rangers in the long run? No. Immediately following the CU, there will be a series of profession revamps and we are slated to be a part of those (there is no timeline set as of yet). Let's let the devs focus on the CU as we want them to focus on Rangers when the time comes.
Thanks for your patience guys!
Nice sentiment but not sure why you bothered saying it, since you reading our ideas is the closest we get to devs actually listening to us.
I sound cynical? Well yes I am. This is largely due to the fact that for airing criticisms about JTL, and asking for SOE people to actually talk to the players rather than saying nothing and deleting threads, all I got for my trouble was a seven day ban. So, given the state JTL has come out in, and the length of time that so many professions have been broken, I am severly lacking in confidence in them all.
Message Edited by DaveG on 11-05-2004 06:36 PM
Almagill
Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:20 pm
#37
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
FWIW, the Sandbox Rangers (as well as some very gracious non-Rangers) fought a valiant fight to get teh Rangers included in the CU, but ultimately the devs decided they would rather wait and give us a proper Revamp rather than what could turn out to be bandaids.
To be totally honest, I'd much rather we were given our own revamp after the CU dust has settled than be lumped in as a 'rangers aren't wite a combat class but we're not sure which box they fit in, so lets sort of give them some stuff in the CU'.
All players who use any form of combat will be affected by the CU. We have the advantage that our revamp will then come along AFTER the CU changes, effectively tweaking us to fit better.
What we DO need thru the sandbox and right thru to the CU publish is to keep a close watch on any and all changes, ask how they'll affect our profession, and if it's a negative effect squawk then.
OOM
Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:44 pm
#38
Almagill wrote:
To be totally honest, I'd much rather we were given our own revamp after the CU dust has settled than be lumped in as a 'rangers aren't wite a combat class but we're not sure which box they fit in, so lets sort of give them some stuff in the CU'.
All players who use any form of combat will be affected by the CU. We have the advantage that our revamp will then come along AFTER the CU changes, effectively tweaking us to fit better.
What we DO need thru the sandbox and right thru to the CU publish is to keep a close watch on any and all changes, ask how they'll affect our profession, and if it's a negative effect squawk then.
This sums up my feelings on the matter. Once the bugs have been weeded out of the CU then it will be easier to see where our current set of skills fit. Then we can see whatfeatures we can get added from all the great documents, discussions, and proposals the people of this community haveworked to generate and refine.
Cheers,
Aitwexoeth
Nemo0
Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:20 pm
#39
But I believe the Combat Upgrade was meant to give Combat Professions "roles". Have they at least mentioned some sort of a role for us (even if you can't tell us what it is)? If not, I'm betting we'll be scrounging around for what's left over. All the "standard"MMO roles will be filled and so they won't let us in on any of the actual combat. Ranger will be stuck on the sidelines, never good enough to compete with a combat character. If we have no role in combat, then we won't have much fun in combat (at least not from the Ranger skills). If they haven't commited to some role, it might be worth trying to get them to do so. I might not agree that Ranger should be left out of the Combat Upgrade but we at least have to make sure that some place in the game is reserved for us when the revamp does come around.
Personally, I like the recon role (i.e. stealth and quick movement), possibly with a bit of ambush tactics (i.e. set up traps to make it hard to get through an area, set up a base to make it harder to attack a position) and hunt leading (i.e. finding targets, giving places to take a rest, helping determine tactics for a target). These also have the advantage of fitting slightly outside the combat upgrade--one can assume that the combat upgrade will make the actual combat fun while the Ranger might be useful for when there are useful targets to attack (i.e. current base defense, GCW targets after the GCW revamp, big game hunts, etc). The skills could be used outside of combat while still giving a big advantage to the actual combat. But I wouldn't mind seeing something done for Ranger during the combat upgrade (like traps or some extra defenses).