Ranger Archive
Thread: Limiting us from 2/3 of the game.
Can you craft armor? Droids? Ships? Hmm, Guess there are aspects of the game you can not do because you chose Ranger. The argument I think is centered around being less effective vs. NPCs or Players as a result of choosing Ranger. Combat Medics andDoctors can use their support skills irregardless of whether the combat is versus creatures, npcs, or players. Rangers traps are vs. Creatures only. The to hit bonuses versus creatures only. Get the picture
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
okay, Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game. Let's not split hairs here, Calc.
Let's not over exaggerate, either. There is NOTHING in this game that I can't do becuase I chose Ranger.
EDIT: I guess spelling isn't my thing today.
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 09-08-2005 09:08 AM
YT-2000 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that Ranger is not completely creature-centric. Only half of our skills are described by this (advanced trapping/tracking lines). The other half is based on survival (wayfaring/frontiering lines). Ranger as a whole is wilderness-centric and I'd I think that should be its defining role.
good point.
to clarify: when i say creature centric: i include all creatures/ survival/ wilderness skills in that overall phrase.
its not the best phrase, but i wanted to clarify what i mean when i say "creature centric"
Phenix1050 wrote:
Almagill wrote:
I'm lost. What am I prevented from doing because of my Ranger skills?
Phenix1050 wrote:
okay, Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game. Let's not split hairs here, Calc.
do I really have to explain this again? Choosing Ranger doesn't stop you from doing other content. Just like being a Dancer/Rifleman doesn't stop you from participating in PvP. But being a dancer doesn't HELP you when you're in combat. The same thing happens when a Ranger engages in PvP or goes up against NPCs. All the skillpoints that I spend on Ranger are wasted when fighting an NPC because none of my skills work on NPCs.
There's not a barrier stopping people from PvPing if they're a Ranger, but when they choose to do it, you'll never see them use a Ranger special. Why? Because Ranger skillls don't work in PvP.
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 09-08-2005 11:02 AM
I think my problem was in that I read 'Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game' as meaning 'Ranger skills prevent me from taking part in 2/3s of the game' Which of course they don't , they just don't apply. SO broadly we're in agreement.
However, to an extent I hold to the choices/consequences line of thought. You choose to take a profession, it has consequences which impact the degree of difficulty you will experience in completing some of the content. Sometimes thats for the good, sometimes it's for the bad. It's like selecting Novice/Veteran in a conventional SEUG, sorta.
Oh, I do use Ranger skills in NPC combat. Camo (when it works) and TN. Hey, I'm not too proud to beat feet and get out of range when the mark's tougher than I expected....
and, on that note
/burst
Serraphin wrote:
Can you craft armor? Droids? Ships? Hmm, Guess there are aspects of the game you can not do because you chose Ranger. The argument I think is centered around being less effective vs. NPCs or Players as a result of choosing Ranger. Combat Medics andDoctors can use their support skills irregardless of whether the combat is versus creatures, npcs, or players. Rangers traps are vs. Creatures only. The to hit bonuses versus creatures only. Get the picture
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
okay, Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game. Let's not split hairs here, Calc.
Let's not over exaggerate, either. There is NOTHING in this game that I can't do becuase I chose Ranger.
EDIT: I guess spelling isn't my thing today.Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 09-08-2005 09:08 AM
Yes, I can craft armor and be a Ranger and particpate in combat.
AgonThalia wrote:
I agree with Calc and JB.
1: Ranger is a limitation because we are designed to be creature centric, however, just because i cant kill high level NPC's as a master ranger, does not mean that my gameplay is gated. I ask my friends who are better at combat to come help out. Most of the time, they oblige.
Here's the point. If there's a level 82 creature, does a "humanoid-centric" profession have to call for your help? No. As a Carbineer/BH with some pistol skills, I can root, snare, etc creatures the same way that I dowith Ranger skills. But then I can also turn around and do that to an NPC. Why should a Ranger have to call for help against an NPC when others don't have to call for help against a critter
2: I think that ranger as a combat class will cause more problems than solutions. If we are brought inline with the combat professions, the focus will not be on our unique creature centric abilities.
Seperate combat role from content role. BH's have a humanoid-centric content role, but they are universal in combat. If Ranger is made universal in combat, we can still have creature-centric content.
3: if we are given a much more diverse and powerful skillset vs. creatures and general combat, then that essentially defines our role in groups.
no, if we are made more powerful against creatures, it will only serve to make us overpowered in that area, making them rebalance creature combat. I can already solo any creature in the game. If they make us "more powerful" against creatures, I'll be able to solo things faster than I should be able to.
4: if you are looking at pure limitations, rifleman has limitations because it's high dmg, low defense... there will always be limitations in professions, and its those limitations that encourage grouping and diversity.
Riflemen can use their power against every enemy in the game and fill in their weaknesses. The weakness you're talking about is power on the 9 point scale (crowd control, offense, defense) Riflemen have high offense, low defense. Rangers have high crowd control....against creatures...and that's it. See the difference?
5: i want rangers to be more creature centric, and not to be more spec. ops. If you want spec-ops, go BH-commando, or rifleman-commando or something that combines the skillsets you want.
so either subscribe to your view or leave the profession. Come on, let's not act like that here. I should be able to play Ranger however I see fit, just like you. I RP my BH/Ranger as a bit of a Cop, going after Bismari poachers. If I choose to RP it as a hunter, should I be forced to leave the BH profession? You're entitled to play your Ranger as you see fit. But I should be able to have my Ranger skills help me play the profession the way I want to.
this is just my personal opinion, my complaint about the ranger profession is NOT with its limitations, thats a given... my complaint is that we are not unique and need more functionality in the skills that we already have.
GCW 1/3 of game
NPC Destroy Missions 1/3 of game
Creature kill missions 1/3 of game
Equals 2/3 of the game that Ranger is omitted from
Keeping Ranger out of the GCW is short sighted and simply dumb as is limiting Ranger to creature killing because SWG's end game is NOT creatures its the GCW (and used to be the FRS as well)
If you advocate making Ranger creature only, then you advocate blocking Rangers from joining a faction, and deny them parity in NPC content such as the Vette, the DWB, the Warrens, etc,etc. You deny them quests, and other NPC related content because they are not creatures.
If you are trying to take Ranger into a creature-only role, I say hell no, because thats Master Scout and I dont need to waste 60 some odd SP to do the same thing a Master Scout can do.
Phenix1050 wrote:
I think the difficulty here is coming from the definition of "<_____-centric" and "role"
Rangers should maintain a wilderness-centric "content role"
Rangers should have, like everybody else, a universal "combat role"
Bounty Hunters have a humainoid-centric "content role"
Bounty Hunters have, like everybody else, a universal "combat role".
When a Bounty Hunter/Ranger attacks a creature, he is able to use all of his BH specials. I know because I have this template. There is no penaltywhen a BH attacks a creature, nor a bonuswhen they attack NPCs or players. Thus, in combat, they are universalist. Now in creature combat, the BH/Ranger is also able to use all of his traps (their effectiveness can be debated, of course).
Now when that same BH/Ranger attacks an NPC, they are able to use all their BH specials. Once again, there is no penalty or bonus for when the BH uses their BH speicals against a humanoid. However, when they go to use their Ranger skills, they get the message "this trap can only affect creatures". Now if there is no combat benefit for BHs when fighting NPCs, it's clear they aren't NPC-centric when they're in combat. But it's clear when a Ranger engages in combat that their "combat role" is the only "combat role" which is limited.
Having read all the responses I must say I am disturbed. I really feel, (like I'm beating my head against a wall but I digress) like we are MUCH MORE than just hunters. I, along with Owen and several others, subscribe to the para-military Ranger role. Folks we need to understand that our profession is one of the few that can be very truly UNIQUE in the game.
We have the potential to be a blend of what everyone in this community wants if the Devs just put their ears and minds to it. Why limit us to PVE? There have been plenty of threads and ideas showing how we could be incorporated into combat and be really effective. I will state, as I did when N'Raas was boss and the Dev's said we were to be solely creature-centric, that I do not agree with this. I want to see us be involved in the GCW and PvP. Traps and camps have great potential for this. Let's not pigeon-hole our profession into a narrow idea of what we could be.
Most importantly, Rangers are the only scout based combat profession to have this limitation, as Squad Leaders, Creature Handlers, and Bounty Hunters are not only useful, but in demand for PvP and NPC combat. The ONLY time my Ranger skills have been even slightly useful in PvP is if I could put down a camp as a rally point and field base, but at that point I'm completely locked out of the combat all together. Basically don't bring a Ranger to a base takedown team. Even BE's are in higher demand in those situations.
Almagill wrote:
I think my problem was in that I read 'Ranger skills are limited from 2/3rds of the COMBAT game' as meaning 'Ranger skills prevent me from taking part in 2/3s of the game' Which of course they don't , they just don't apply. SO broadly we're in agreement.
Ranger skills ARE limited from 2/3rds of the combat game. When I roll into NPC combat, I do so with only my skills from Bounty Hunter. It doesn't mean a RANGER is barrred from that content...but they do so without Ranger skills.
However, to an extent I hold to the choices/consequences line of thought.You choose to take a profession, it has consequences which impact the degree of difficulty you will experience in completing some of the content.
No, see...that's the point. Bounty Hunters have no harder time against same level creatures as they do against NPCs. Underhand shot does the same thing against creatures as it does against NPCs.
Sometimes thats for the good, sometimes it's for the bad. It's like selecting Novice/Veteran in a conventional SEUG, sorta.
Oh, I do use Ranger skills in NPC combat. Camo (when it works) and TN. Hey, I'm not too proud to beat feet and get out of range when the mark's tougher than I expected....
Camo doesn't work once you're already in combat (unless you're engaging mulitple targets, and in that case, you're actually providing a good example of a skills that DOES work all around, as it should). And the TN you're using in combat is from scout. Running speed mods cap at +50. Unless you fight your entire fight in the prone position, your Ranger TN isn't being used. When I fight, I'm running around. I use TN then, too. But if I was MBH/Master Scout instead of MBH/MRanger, the only thing that would change would be my creature level and health. I'd move just as fast.
and, on that note
/burst
Rancorrider4 wrote:
Having read all the responses I must say I am disturbed. I really feel, (like I'm beating my head against a wall but I digress) like we are MUCH MORE than just hunters. I, along with Owen and several others, subscribe to the para-military Ranger role. Folks we need to understand that our profession is one of the few that can be very truly UNIQUE in the game.
We have the potential to be a blend of what everyone in this community wants if the Devs just put their ears and minds to it. Why limit us to PVE? There have been plenty of threads and ideas showing how we could be incorporated into combat and be really effective. I will state, as I did when N'Raas was boss and the Dev's said we were to be solely creature-centric, that I do not agree with this. I want to see us be involved in the GCW and PvP. Traps and camps have great potential for this. Let's not pigeon-hole our profession into a narrow idea of what we could be.
just checking, were you quoting me to argue or to agree? Because of the "banging your head against the wall" comment, I'm not sure. Because it seems like we're in agreement. Well, I agree with you in any case.Ranger can be more than just creature-centric in combat.
I don't mind having Ranger be creature-centric in terms of content. Harvesting is content, one could say. The Big Game Hunting terminal that I've proposed is creature-centric CONTENT. But just like a BH can use their specials on a critter, I'd like to run around trapping people if we go on a base raid. I
I guess what I'm saying is that a BH has a choice. They can choose to use their skills on their content, or on the rest of the game. I don't mind Rangers getting creautre-centric content so long as, like a BH, they can choose to use their skills on their content, or on the rest of the game.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rancorrider4 wrote:
Having read all the responses I must say I am disturbed. I really feel, (like I'm beating my head against a wall but I digress) like we are MUCH MORE than just hunters. I, along with Owen and several others, subscribe to the para-military Ranger role. Folks we need to understand that our profession is one of the few that can be very truly UNIQUE in the game.
We have the potential to be a blend of what everyone in this community wants if the Devs just put their ears and minds to it. Why limit us to PVE? There have been plenty of threads and ideas showing how we could be incorporated into combat and be really effective. I will state, as I did when N'Raas was boss and the Dev's said we were to be solely creature-centric, that I do not agree with this. I want to see us be involved in the GCW and PvP. Traps and camps have great potential for this. Let's not pigeon-hole our profession into a narrow idea of what we could be.
just checking, were you quoting me to argue or to agree? Because of the "banging your head against the wall" comment, I'm not sure. Because it seems like we're in agreement. Well, I agree with you in any case.Ranger can be more than just creature-centric in combat.
I don't mind having Ranger be creature-centric in terms of content. Harvesting is content, one could say. The Big Game Hunting terminal that I've proposed is creature-centric CONTENT. But just like a BH can use their specials on a critter, I'd like to run around trapping people if we go on a base raid. I
I guess what I'm saying is that a BH has a choice. They can choose to use their skills on their content, or on the rest of the game. I don't mind Rangers getting creautre-centric content so long as, like a BH, they can choose to use their skills on their content, or on the rest of the game.
Sorry bud I was agreeing wholeheartedly. I just put the banging my head against a wall, because it seems like evry coorespondent we've had except Owen feels like we should just be hunters. That and the fact that I've stated this opinion many times heh.
Where have i ever said that?
Rancorrider4 wrote:
Sorry bud I was agreeing wholeheartedly. I just put the banging my head against a wall, because it seems like evry coorespondent we've had except Owen feels like we should just be hunters. That and the fact that I've stated this opinion many times heh.