Ranger Archive
Thread: FAO Calc, re:combat revamp
DaveG
Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:55 pm
#14
Trobon18 wrote:
But a lot of professions also need twiking... oh wait thats not the debate sorry I got flared up. =)
Anyway... Rangers will still have a place. However, like everyone else that place will be with lower lv creatures if you want to still solo.
True that's not the issue, but while you mention it ... 
... This is another reason the combat revamp gets me frustrated: I strongly think that such an extensive project is unnecessary, and that they are effectively wasting time on this project when they could be getting on with fixing professions (ranger, smuggler, chef, etc). The counter arguments I've had to this are that it will be simpler to fix these professions after a combat revamp rather than fixing them before, but my counter-coutner-argument is that the combat revamp (as described so far) isn't necessary in the first place, so there should be nothingin the way of the profession revamps.
Just bring doc buffs into line with TKA and entertainer buffs, then all will be well, or at least a lot better.
Okay, back to topic now ... 
Message Edited by DaveG on 10-26-2004 06:04 AM
DaveG
Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:27 pm
#15
Well I dont' know much about pilstolieer so I'm not qualified to comment 
Trobon18
Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:31 pm
#16
the problem is any of the slower professions are also the ones that hit for the most. This makes it so that a person who is speed capped rifles and speed capped pistols are the same in speend but the rifles kill in damage.
Obata
Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:49 am
#17
DaveG wrote:
Well I dont' know much about pilstolieer so I'm not qualified to comment
That statement reveals what is (I think) the biggest flaw in your arguement against the revamp. You have one template and style of play that you enjoy. I certainly won't fault you for that (any of my Wanderhome friends can tell you how I refuse to change my template), but it does cause a tunnel vision of sorts. You don't see many of the problems with the current system, because you have found the template and play style that suites you. Many professions have major issues, and there are systemic issues beyond that. If you look at a systemic issue, such as the mind pool being unequal to health and action, and try to come up with tweaks to fix it, you end up impacting other areas of combat. There is a dominoe effect to the tweaking. There comes a point where a complete revamp is the only way to fix it.
JBMat
Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:05 am
#18
Oh hell, I will argue.
Bigger beasties should be damn near impossible to solo. Period.
You want to go out and slap a lair of Rancors around, you best have friends. This buff and armor crap is for the birds. A tin suit and some drugs will not help you against a Kimoglia.
For the record, I have solo'd both rancors and kimos, unbuffed, unarmored, using guile, tactics, luck and quick feets. I doubt my style of play will change much after the combat balance, but then again, I am not the Duke Nuk'em, stand and slaughter type.
If you "can't" solo large beasts, good. If it becomes a problem to take down some really large game, good. Use your head for something besides a hat rack and figure out how to do it.
I think we heard this argument about the DWB, how you can't solo it. I know it doesn't fly on the Corvette, as I have a friend who solos the destroy mission, and loots, in 6 minutes. The DWB is fun, the vette is now boring - lucrative but boring.
That which makes the game harder also makes it more fun for those of us who like to think our way out of situations.
JB
Kiros42
Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:03 am
#19
Hopefully they'll increase the amount you harvest is this ends up being the case. For myself, harvesting is my sole source of income. I don't sell loot as I hardly get it and when I do I generally just destroy it if it isn'y something I need/can use. With the bigger mobs such as rancors and the like, I'd love to see them make it worthwhile for rangers by allowing us to harvest hella lot more then the average scout.
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:26 am
#20
I think Paks hit it nicely! There is no incentive to group now, and I find grouping to be more of a hindrance!
From what I know of the CB, it will not become impossible to be a solo player, there just won't be people out there soloing the uber content. I am certain that my grouping style (solo-small groups) will not change with the CB...I already avoid NS Elders and I will continue to do so after the CB. Seriously, a 6 man group of non-stacking players was able to beat the Corvette Rescue mission in under 5 minutes just the other day (and I hear a similar group beat the destroy mission in under 10). That is among the top 10 most difficult things to do, and non-stackers can pwn it. I don't think a few number tweaks will fix combat (but they would help), and i really think that once people see what is in store with the CB, they will get excited about it.
Just so y'all know, this very debate is occurring in the Corr forum as we speak.
From what I know of the CB, it will not become impossible to be a solo player, there just won't be people out there soloing the uber content. I am certain that my grouping style (solo-small groups) will not change with the CB...I already avoid NS Elders and I will continue to do so after the CB. Seriously, a 6 man group of non-stacking players was able to beat the Corvette Rescue mission in under 5 minutes just the other day (and I hear a similar group beat the destroy mission in under 10). That is among the top 10 most difficult things to do, and non-stackers can pwn it. I don't think a few number tweaks will fix combat (but they would help), and i really think that once people see what is in store with the CB, they will get excited about it.
Just so y'all know, this very debate is occurring in the Corr forum as we speak.
DaveG
Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:15 am
#21
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I think Paks hit it nicely! There is no incentive to group now, and I find grouping to be more of a hindrance!
From what I know of the CB, it will not become impossible to be a solo player, there just won't be people out there soloing the uber content. I am certain that my grouping style (solo-small groups) will not change with the CB...I already avoid NS Elders and I will continue to do so after the CB. Seriously, a 6 man group of non-stacking players was able to beat the Corvette Rescue mission in under 5 minutes just the other day (and I hear a similar group beat the destroy mission in under 10). That is among the top 10 most difficult things to do, and non-stackers can pwn it. I don't think a few number tweaks will fix combat (but they would help), and i really think that once people see what is in store with the CB, they will get excited about it.
Just so y'all know, this very debate is occurring in the Corr forum as we speak.
Thanks for the reply Calc. Just please do me one favour, pass my message (enclosed in quote marks in my opening post) on to the devs.
Nemo0
Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:02 pm
#22
Not to mention that a really crap fighter like a Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader can go out and solo rancors with no buffs, chef food, or armor. Just a pistol and some traps. It just involves a bit of skill but most people could probably manage to repeat it (although I don't recommend taking on more than one rancor at a time like this--use warningshot to single pull, use phenacine/adhesive mesh/suppression fire/warning shot/terrain negotiation to keep it at range, [optional] glow juice/wire to aid in hitting, and a gun to do some damage). Is this a good thing? Probably (yes,I shouldn't necessarily be taking on rancors but skill should determine what you can kill). Will this change in the combat balance? Probably not. What will change? All professions should have a more clearly defined purpose and the extreme high end creatures will require a group to take down (and lower level creatures will require a group to take down efficiently).
Right now, a Master Pistoleer is not much different than a Master Rifleman except in damage output (for most players). Both shoot quickly, both are accurate at most ranges, both can hit targets in an area, etc. Admittedly, there is a difference between most riflemen and a pistoleer like JBMat but JB is definitely not the ordinary player (using skills like pistolmeleedefense [pistol melee range knockdown] to keep range instead of relying on armor and buffs is how it should be--a rifleman has no posture down attack unless they pick up ranged support 4 and should use a form of sniping instead).
If you rely mainly on one or two attacks (i.e. spam headshot3 until the creature dies or stand in place while fanshotting) then I'd hope that the combat balance affects you (even if it is to only make sure that you can only kill white con creatures using this simple method). I don't mind if higher level creatures are soloable as long as it takes skill. Some creatures probably shouldn't be soloed (krayts and such should be for group hunts with dedicated tanks, healers, and damage dealers). Most (like rancors) probably can be soloed with a bit of skill (remember that Luke was shoved into the rancor pit with no weapon or armor or preparation--a well armored hunter should stand a chance as well when using tactics). But groups should make hunting easier (ok, you distract the rancor while I'll work on killing it). The problem now is that any naive fighter can kill anything in the game. It is not good that I can just put on some armor and get buffed and take on a rancor with no training or thought. Currently, you could drop every single skill in the game, pick up some armor, get buffed, and solo a rancor (and possibly a krayt with some nice 90% armor and long period buffs). That is wrong.But a good fighter with some idea of what he is doing probably will be able to kill that rancor, even without buffs. But it shouldn't be easy.
Do you think that a pistoleer should fight in the same way as a rifleman? Or a rifleman should fight the same way as a fencer? Currently, that is the norm. People don't even bother moving (some people will sit there kneeling in front of a krayt). The rifleman should die as soon as the krayt closes into melee range. But the fencer has every right to try and stand up to that krayt, at least for a little while (but he won't do much damage to it). The pistoleer probably should be able to play tag for a bit, keeping the krayt from killing him but not really killing the krayt either all while moving the krayt to where he wants it to be. Together, though, the fencer would make sure the krayt stays off the rifleman, the pistoleer would help out if the fencer was having a little trouble, and the rifleman would be in charge of doing some damage. This is an extremely crude example but I hope it shows my point a little bit.
Overall, I'd guess that the Combat Balance won't make such huge changes to everything as some people are worried about. Without changing some very basic gameplay mechanics (like melee vs. ranged), it will be hard for the Devs to make a system where something like a rancor can't be soloed (and they shouldn't be trying for that). But soloing a rancor shouldn't be possible by walking up to it and prodding it with a fork. It should involve skill and probably a lot of extra time (or, at least, some compromise between the two--an uber tank might be able to stand there until the rancor dies [although they will hopefully need to use well timed specials to be an uber tank] but he will be there all day whereas a powerhouse might be able to kill the rancor quickly but he better not get hit much). A large part of this will just be number tweaking (nerfing armor and buffs, moving defenses around a bit, playing with damage values, moving some certs around a bit, changing speeds and accuracy, etc) but there will need to be a few fairly major non number tweaks (like moving HAM costs onto a separate special bar so you don't keep killing yourself, adding varied speed caps for the different professions so a Rifleman is not shooting as fast as a pistoleer and a Swordsman is not swinging a hammer around as nimbly as a fencer flicks his sword, etc.). There will also be a lot of bug fixes (making sure that all the specials actually work, etc) and some extra tweaking to make some skills more useful (like doing something extra with tumbling, possibly removing certain restrictions from rally, increase the effects of various states). We might even get lucky and see some fairly major additions (like Stealth, New traps, and creature combat related defenses for Ranger [i.e. profession specific stuff that can't be done just by number tweaking]).
Sheesh, that turned into a longer post than expected. I hope it stayed sensible (I don't think I'm going to proofread it for clarity and such right now).
Madhi
Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:56 pm
#23
I myself prefer to play in a group. And well there's like paks said not enough challenge (and no I don't feel like shooting krayts/corvette all day). I would be happy about de CB bringin more group play. One of the reasons I chose carbineer/Creature handler is that for some of the tougher enemies I'm going to need a group.
And about lowering the maximum level you can solo. I heard that some people said that it would be hard with a combat pofession to solo a rancor, well atm a CH can use a bull rancor so the level should still be around lvl 70-80 (unless they nerf ch again). So the way I see you just can't solo the high end mobs alone
And about lowering the maximum level you can solo. I heard that some people said that it would be hard with a combat pofession to solo a rancor, well atm a CH can use a bull rancor so the level should still be around lvl 70-80 (unless they nerf ch again). So the way I see you just can't solo the high end mobs alone
Ranger_Nizzle
Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:45 pm
#24
Just a few of my thoughts.
I understand the argument that states "use buffs and group if you want to, don't if you don't want to". However, one must realize (atleast this is my opinion) that these MMORPG's must have a level playing field for all. You can't have a an optional environment because making buffs optional will totally kill pvp worse than it already is, and it will make a gap in achievement [for PVE and PVP] that will be beneficial to no one.
There needs to be a compromise so that one can enjoy the game solo or grouped, and advance in fair time with either. I like to do both, and this is the first mmo to come close to allowing that. The combat balance is the answer. You can't just nerf doc-buffs. There are so many other examples of craziness in terms of numbers in this game that were never intended, and it has hurt so many things other than grouping.
I liken it to the 1920s America. We are in a situation identical to that of the Decade of Decadence. We need a nerf that will end all nerfs, period! 
Fred_Skinner
Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:57 pm
#25
Trobon18 wrote:But a lot of professions also need twiking... oh wait thats not the debate sorry I got flared up. =)Anyway... Rangers will still have a place. However, like everyone else that place will be with lower lv creatures if you want to still solo.
Ok, this is my biggest worry right here. We are usually templated out to what most would be a lower level of usefullness. Right now, we can pick one or 2 of the uber profs and get by but when they fix them, we are suddenly a lower level, unjustly, to everyone else. Therefore, if they do this (make it harder to solo) then what do we get back to compensate? Buttkiss, I tell you. A Master Ranger, imho, should not be reduced thusly. We should be dropping critters that others can't. Unless they address this, CB will be like going back to day 2 for us.
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:58 pm
#26
DaveG, I posted this in the Corr forum, under the existing thread. The corrs seem to agree with you.