Ranger Archive
Thread: we do NOT want carbines
Ok this template option just struck me...
BH Pre-Req: Scout - Explore 4 + Marksman - Range Support 4
Carbiner Pre-req: Marksman - Carbineer 4 + Range Support 4 (already played for)
Ranger Pre-req: Scout - Explore 4 (already played for) + Marksman - Carbineer 4 (already played for)
Add Master Carbineer, And master BH, Novice Medic, and the "Hiding & Concealment" and "Stealth & Subterfuge" Lines of Ranger. And you have a BH/carbineer with first strike ability in the wilderness, and the ability to hide in city's (but not move around stealthy in them)
Sound like there will be a new game called "Kite that Jedi"
I think it makes a peaty good argument against, an explore 4 + weapon line of marksman pre-req. Just demonstrate what I was saying in my last post in this topic.
Message Edited by Tarnak_Archvold on 09-22-2005 08:55 PM
If the fear is Ranger/BH combination this would also help add the extra 14 Sp to the cost for that, and in a branch that most PvPers would not consider very useful to them.
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
I think the best solution would be to give us the same Pre-req and CH's. Sure it would make the Ranger/CH template cheaper, but then it would likely need all the help it could get on the offensive front match up in PvP. It would also make Ranger/BE cheaper, but that would only be in my book.
If the fear is Ranger/BH combination this would also help add the extra 14 Sp to the cost for that, and in a branch that most PvPers would not consider very useful to them.
However, none of those founding branches have combat modifiers.
Phenix1050 wrote:Somebody recommended this on the main thread:
Ranged Support IV + Trapping IV.
That way, we don't have the same pre-reqs as BH, but we aren't forced into carbines. It's still not as good as Exploration IV + Trapping IV, but it seems like a somewhat better solution.
That's a very good idea, but then we're still left with the xp problem.
I suppose it could be done similar to how it works in the village. You talk to the trainer to get your chosen weapon xp and combat xp converted into Ranger xp. Hmm...
QFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Phenix1050 wrote:
Somebody recommended this on the main thread:
Ranged Support IV + Trapping IV.
That way, we don't have the same pre-reqs as BH, but we aren't forced into carbines. It's still not as good as Exploration IV + Trapping IV, but it seems like a somewhat better solution.
/agreed
Dark_Jedi_Eric wrote:
If they must put a prereq in marksman, it should be ranged support 4, not carbines.
YT-2000 wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
Somebody recommended this on the main thread:
Ranged Support IV + Trapping IV.
That way, we don't have the same pre-reqs as BH, but we aren't forced into carbines. It's still not as good as Exploration IV + Trapping IV, but it seems like a somewhat better solution.
That's a very good idea, but then we're still left with the xp problem.
I suppose it could be done similar to how it works in the village. You talk to the trainer to get your chosen weapon xp and combat xp converted into Ranger xp. Hmm...
Well, there is precedent for dealing with things like this tho. BH has Explore 4 (Scout XP) and Ranged Support 4 (Combat XP). Yet the trees of BH actually call for Investigation XP, Carbine XP, Pistol XP and Rifle XP. NONE of those XP types are what is used to gain the 2 pre-req lines, go figure. There's little way to force Ranger to earn the boxes thru any kind of weapon XP without tying Ranger to a particular weapon. IDEALLY, the XP required would be based on whatever complimentary profession you take (if you'rea pistoleer, it's pistols; if you're TKM, it's unarmed; if you're rifleman, it's rifles, etC). Realistically, I don't see that happening. So either traps get really useful thru all of combat, traps gives tons and tons of xp, ranger gets earned thru combat xp (uugh!), ranger keeps the hunting pre-req so that we earn our skills by harvesting (not a great idea IMHO, doesn't fit with the new direction for Ranger) or Ranger ends up tied to a particular weapons-type pre-req. I'm not a fan of that, but I see the dilemna that the devs are facing now, and I honstly can't say WHAT the right answer would be. Picking any one type of weapons XP to earn ranger boxes would then mean that either you're "forced" to master that weapon to be able to gain XP at a reasonable rate with that weapon and at the same time forcing all rangers to be a particular type of combat profession simply to be able to master ranger, or you end up trying to master ranger with onlynovice skills with that weapon. This must be what it feels like to have to master SL with pistols XP if you want to use a rifle, carbines, or go melee. You almost have to master, say, carbines, then master ranger, then go back and grind up whatever OTHER profession you might want to have as a Ranger if it's not master carbines. What an ugly, ugly thing this is going to be. 
Why Ranged Support. As I've already said, it just kills off another profession that a Melee character can take up without losing a bunch of wasted skill points. I see no reason that Ranger should require a ranged profession.
It doesn't even make any logical sense. If its not going to grant any ranged special attacks, why do you need ranged training for it? I somehow need to be able to shoot a gun to lay a mine? Or camoflage myself? Why? Where is the logic in that?
I don't see why Squad Leader needs it either (need to shoot a gun to help a group? Eh?), but its been like that for a while and I doubt it'll change.
Yes, I play 2 melee characters (and one of them is a Swordsman/Combat Medic, I hate having to waste those skill points on ranged support).And I hate how I have no options on what professions to take if I want to be effective. I'm barely effective as a CM/Swordsman, and thats only because of how powerful healing is. If I want to make a full template with no wasted skill points, I can take either Doctor, Swordsman, TKA, Pikeman, or Fencer. Thats it. Anything else and I lose a lot of effectiveness. 29 skill points spent for a pre-req and a few points of extra defense just isn't worth it when I can spend those 29 points in another elite brawling profession and in turn get more special attacks and a lot more defense and offense. Its awfully bland though. I can't do anything but fight, or fight and heal. If I want to do something different, or have skills other than pure combat, I can't really be good at combat then.On my 3 Ranged professions, I can be combat effective and have a variety of skills too.
If everyone is so worried about needing a skill point sink, why not just make it take 3 lines in Scout? Exploration, Trapping, and Survival. It can't possibly be that hard.
Think about it, it makes sense. Trapping is a given. Exploration would help you move stealthily and such. Survival, well you need to be able to survive, perhaps for a period of time even, waiting for an opportunity to arise to allow you to set your traps.
It keeps the whole Bounty Hunter thing that everyone seems so concerned about in check, it makes it harder to take up in all respects (less FotM-ness, another thing a lot of people seem concerned about), and it doesn't completely screw a melee character with useless mods and wasted skill points.
WE are not YOU. YOU do not want carbines, leave me out of the WE argument because I like carbs just fine.
there isn only a tiny group of people that are eligible to be making WE claims on this forum (Owen and Calc are the only 2 that come to mind)..those two are the only ones qualified to be making statements about what WE want.
Please do not assume just because YOU want or dont want something that WE agree. Pretending to have a consensus by tossing around WE is pretty short-sighted.
Just switch "WE" to "I" in your post and all is well.
Electro5 wrote:
Why Ranged Support. As I've already said, it just kills off another profession that a Melee character can take up without losing a bunch of wasted skill points. I see no reason that Ranger should require a ranged profession.
It doesn't even make any logical sense. If its not going to grant any ranged special attacks, why do you need ranged training for it? I somehow need to be able to shoot a gun to lay a mine? Or camoflage myself? Why? Where is the logic in that?
I don't see why Squad Leader needs it either (need to shoot a gun to help a group? Eh?), but its been like that for a while and I doubt it'll change.
Yes, I play 2 melee characters (and one of them is a Swordsman/Combat Medic, I hate having to waste those skill points on ranged support). And I hate how I have no options on what professions to take if I want to be effective. I'm barely effective as a CM/Swordsman, and thats only because of how powerful healing is. If I want to make a full template with no wasted skill points, I can take either Doctor, Swordsman, TKA, Pikeman, or Fencer. Thats it. Anything else and I lose a lot of effectiveness. 29 skill points spent for a pre-req and a few points of extra defense just isn't worth it when I can spend those 29 points in another elite brawling profession and in turn get more special attacks and a lot more defense and offense. Its awfully bland though. I can't do anything but fight, or fight and heal. If I want to do something different, or have skills other than pure combat, I can't really be good at combat then. On my 3 Ranged professions, I can be combat effective and have a variety of skills too.
If everyone is so worried about needing a skill point sink, why not just make it take 3 lines in Scout? Exploration, Trapping, and Survival. It can't possibly be that hard.
Think about it, it makes sense. Trapping is a given. Exploration would help you move stealthily and such. Survival, well you need to be able to survive, perhaps for a period of time even, waiting for an opportunity to arise to allow you to set your traps.
It keeps the whole Bounty Hunter thing that everyone seems so concerned about in check, it makes it harder to take up in all respects (less FotM-ness, another thing a lot of people seem concerned about), and it doesn't completely screw a melee character with useless mods and wasted skill points.
Okay. From the information we're getting back from the correspondents and through reading the In Dev thread, the reason for 'ranged support' is because the devs appear to have settled on the idea that the prerequisits for NuRangers will be "a scout based skill" and "a ranged skill".
People are arguing FOR RSIV, on the whole, because out of the 4 marksman lines it is the one that is not weapon specific.
People who are accepting CarbsIV are, on the whole, people who either have or have had carbs in their template and it's more a case of "yeah, okay, no biggy" than "oorah, carbs rock, lets go carbs"*.
People who have voiced an opinion in favour of other weapon are, by and large, people who currently play a character which has that weapon in their template and they (perfectly reasonably) don't see why they should be forced into taking another line of marksman which will, if they keep their current ranged choice, will just become an SP sink.
MELEE rangers, otoh, have an equally legitimate case to present that says "we don't USE ranged weapons, why do we have to invest SP in a skill that we will get absolutely no benefit from other than access to the profession that we're chosing to follow".
In effect we have a situation where the dev's are presenting us with their vision of NuRanger and we are trying to mitigate the damage to existing profs while finding a meeting point between all the differing PoV's.
(Additionally, I don't think the 'well $foo profession has an SP sink in having to take $fooOther profession, so Rangers should just suck it up' actually has any validity in a discussion. Extending that logic to any other changes just opens a door for "well, its' a bit fubared, but hey, suck it up". Not a route to progress, really.)
*as I type his I just know there will be at least one carbineer who can't resist going 'oorah', but hey LALL, feh.
There are precious few professions other than pure melee combat where you don't take a hit on Skill Points just to go melee - and the melee professions are generally weaker and less effective than the Ranged ones in the first place from what I have seen.
Furthermore the most common spec for Rangers prior to this seems to have been Master Rifleman/Master Ranger, so if it was going to be tied to a specific weapon, it would make more sense for it to be Rifle, but I digress.
I was a TKM/MRanger. That ate all the points up. With the new spec I had hoped I could return to this TKM spec and add in some healing - and I can, there will be enough points left over to have Medic0020 - woot
If I was ranged though, it would be trivial to add CM4000 and get very effective healing given the current plans for requirements. This disparity means that virtually no one with any common sense will choose to burn 29 skill points for no reason just to go with a Melee Profession. Thats a massive expense just because you want to play a melee profession, and it further marginalizes Melee professions as a whole.
I would like to suggest that the most logical prerequisites would be Exploration IV and Trapping IV from the Scouting line, or similiar options after Scout is redesigned as part of the Ranger Revamp. This means Ranger will still mix well with BH and CH, but will require the otherwise ignored Trapping line from Scout, it will also not limit you as to weapon choice between Ranged and Melee in any way. It will mean if you do go the also popular route of CH/Ranger you can obtain some decent healing skills as part of the package.