Ranger Archive
Thread: Why should Rangers be able to throw traps while mounted on a creature?
JBMat
Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:49 pm
#14
Master's degree in Physics aside - still can't hit squat riding on a bouncing beastie. Please don't do the math, it will make my head explode. (btw, never took physics, guess practical experience is enough.)
We are not masters of mounts. We are merely one of the classes that can ride, not train, not tame--- just freaking ride. We are just one of the many classes that can use our weapons - not specials - from the back of a bouncing beastie. Notice Dave - not specials - as some deadBrit dude saidand I paraphrase - therein lies the rub.
Traps = specials. No specials when mounted. C'mon y'all. No one has convinced me yet. Yeah, we can toss the stuff on the ground, but have to stop running to do so. It just doesn't carry over.
JB
who has a mount, but rarely uses it. And I want traps versus pets in PvP
Squidwalker
Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:40 am
#15
Well I'm a disgruntled old ranger, and I say we should have the skill at scout someplace. Maybe master scout? And I say scout not ranger, because who the heck uses ranger traps? They are pretty useless and there are only two of them. So the skill is much more useful at scouts level.
JBMat
Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:06 am
#16
Dave - you are missing your entire chain of reasoning there - if not weapons or specials, what are traps?
Traps are specials - limited weapons or abilitiesthat only a certain 2 classes can use.
Specials are used to apply states to targets - like bleed, blind, dizzy for example. Traps do that. We can use them to damage a creature or enhance our damages to a creatureor drop resists on creatures. We incur a HAM cost to use them, just like specials. We must stop all other activity to use traps, not unlike using a special that medics get to use - stims.
Traps are our specials for use in PvE. They allow any Scout/Ranger to apply states regardless of combat class. They are capable of being used byonlypeople who have learned the prerequisite skills. Sound like specials to me.
But I will bite, if traps are not specials, nor weapons - then what are they?
JB
playing devil's advocate, or I was, now I done convinced myself
Iseult
Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:18 am
#17
Hi all - if you get novice CH you can have a mount and a droid out at the same time -- not the solution you're looking for I know, but if you really think you need traps and your mount, you might try this...
Iseult
Master Ranger / Mediocre Rifleperson
Bloodfin
Master Ranger / Mediocre Rifleperson
Bloodfin
DaveG
Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:37 am
#18
JBMat wrote:
Dave - you are missing your entire chain of reasoning there - if not weapons or specials, what are traps?
Traps are specials - limited weapons or abilitiesthat only a certain 2 classes can use.
Specials are used to apply states to targets - like bleed, blind, dizzy for example. Traps do that. We can use them to damage a creature or enhance our damages to a creatureor drop resists on creatures. We incur a HAM cost to use them, just like specials. We must stop all other activity to use traps, not unlike using a special that medics get to use - stims.
Traps are our specials for use in PvE. They allow any Scout/Ranger to apply states regardless of combat class. They are capable of being used byonlypeople who have learned the prerequisite skills. Sound like specials to me.
But I will bite, if traps are not specials, nor weapons - then what are they?
JB
playing devil's advocate, or I was, now I done convinced myself
Well, my opinion of them is in direct contradiction of somethings you said. You said we use them to damage a creature, and you said we incur a HAM cost to use them. I believe these two statements are simply untrue. Our traps do not damage a creature (in terms of HAM points), they do not cost us HAM points to use.
They do incur state effects which limit the combat capability of the target (i.e. dizzy, blind, stun, tranquilise, but NOT bleed), they dont' inflict damage, or indeed DOT. Therefore along this reasoning I have always maintained that they are more of a defensive measure, by virtue that they cannot really be described as an offensive measure. (Think about it, if you're a master ranger and a master bio engineer, you have no combat ability, and a creature aggro's you. All you can do is lob traps at it, and you will never kill it that way. Best you can hope for is to p-dart it, and burst run away. Ergo, no offensive capability).
However, this argument aside, even if they are classed as a weapon, that still doesn't say that they shouldn't be usable while mounted. Other professions have specific weapons (BH, commando), and unless I'm mistaken, they can be used from a mount like an ordinary weapon.
So debating whether they're a special move, or even indeed a weapon or not, it becomes irrellavent to the argument.
Phenix1050
Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:51 am
#19
Well Dave, a BH can indeed shoot weapons from a mount.
but they cannot provide state effects. To dizzy+KD a person, a BH has to use a special, which, as we all know, cannot be done while mounted.
This is not to say that I don't think we should get to do it, I simply think that JB has a point.
Nemo0
Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:32 am
#21
DaveG wrote:
...
(Think about it, if you're a master ranger and a master bio engineer, you have no combat ability, and a creature aggro's you. All you can do is lob traps at it, and you will never kill it that way. Best you can hope for is to p-dart it, and burst run away. Ergo, no offensive capability).
...
Well, you can lob traps and use a CDEF. Not especially quick but it does work. If you p-dart it, it won't get near you. If it can't get near you, it can't hurt you. If it can't hurt you, you can spend as long as you want trying to kill it. Plus, that Master BE is likely to have a killer level 10 pet.
DaveG
Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:35 am
#22
Nemo0 wrote:
DaveG wrote:
...
(Think about it, if you're a master ranger and a master bio engineer, you have no combat ability, and a creature aggro's you. All you can do is lob traps at it, and you will never kill it that way. Best you can hope for is to p-dart it, and burst run away. Ergo, no offensive capability).
...
Well, you can lob traps and use a CDEF. Not especially quick but it does work. If you p-dart it, it won't get near you. If it can't get near you, it can't hurt you. If it can't hurt you, you can spend as long as you want trying to kill it. Plus, that Master BE is likely to have a killer level 10 pet.
Well the discussion was focusing on traps alone, not using another weapon with them. Even if that Master BE does have a killler lvl 10 pet, he/she won't be able to use it because he/she isn't a creature handler.
Nemo0
Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:54 am
#23
DaveG wrote:
Nemo0 wrote:
DaveG wrote:
...
(Think about it, if you're a master ranger and a master bio engineer, you have no combat ability, and a creature aggro's you. All you can do is lob traps at it, and you will never kill it that way. Best you can hope for is to p-dart it, and burst run away. Ergo, no offensive capability).
...
Well, you can lob traps and use a CDEF. Not especially quick but it does work. If you p-dart it, it won't get near you. If it can't get near you, it can't hurt you. If it can't hurt you, you can spend as long as you want trying to kill it. Plus, that Master BE is likely to have a killer level 10 pet.
Well the discussion was focusing on traps alone, not using another weapon with them. Even if that Master BE does have a killler lvl 10 pet, he/she won't be able to use it because he/she isn't a creature handler.
Well, several things:
ANYONE can use a level 10 pet. They do not need CH. They just need a CH to train it for them. They are not required to have this but they can do so with no skill point cost.
ANYONE can use a CDEF. Again, they just need an artisan to make it for them.
Because anyone can use these game mechanics, they must be considered in any discussion on a game mechanic. You can't claim that a Master BE/Master Ranger has no way to defend himself. It is not true. They don't have a very effective way to defend themselves but your statement above was false. Because every player has some amount of combat ability (i.e. free cert weapons, droids, and non-CH pets) you must consider that ability in any discussion on skills. You can't say that traps are not a weapon special just because you don't need any weapon skills to use them. I personally leveled up most of Scout without any combat profession my first time through (and this was solo). It was not easy but it is possible to do. Without traps, it would have been a LOT harder to kill stuff. Traps are a method of enhancing your effectiveness in a combat situation. Whether you decide to fight in the combat situation or run from it, they help you. By your argument, /burstrun can not be used offensively yet it happens to be one of the most used skills in PvP (especially for melee players). Just because a skill is not capable of killing a target that does not make it a non combat skill.
Also, it's not only combat specials that can't be used while mounted. You can't use most profession specials while mounted (including surveying, crafting, healing, etc). The only exception I am aware ofis /systemmessage (tracking and pet commands fall into a grey area--tracking requires a bug to work and pet commands are just spatial chatter). All the other mounted usable commands (/attack, /peace, /gallop, /spatial, /tell, etc) are commands available to everyone. And passive abilities are not specials.
DaveG
Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:02 pm
#24
Quite right about lvl-10 pets, I got confused for a moment about non-ch pets, my mistake.
What you said about burst run though. I still stand by what I said in as much as defence is part of combat, but it isn't a weapon in itself.
JBMat
Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:36 pm
#25
I just checked two things out.
1. Sharp bone spurs do inflict damage on creatures. In spite of being nerfed way back when, they still so some damage to the Mind bar. I recall that at one point, you could about kill some creatures - paralopes and durnis - with the sharp bone spur. Granted it ain't much, but damage it is.
(And if you recall this nerf, you been a scout forever)
2. There is a HAM cost to toss a trap. It is in action. Go check. (wait, action, where my specials as pistoleer come from... specials...traps....) Again, granted it's small, but there is a cost.
JB
DaveG
Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:47 pm
#26
I'm very skeptical about this, but I'll check it out in more detail.