Ranger Archive

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Limobacca wrote:

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Tiggs wrote:

Folks,

How about you jump on Test Center or TC-Gorath and do some tests. Let me know if Rangers/MRs are getting less then the group and I will bring those results to the team. Sound good? =)

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ok Tiggs here's what i got testing on TC-Gorath

same race and no tapes or droids for harvesting

mstr rnger + mstr ranger both got 40% bonus and same harvest amount

mstr rnger + 0040 ranger mstr ranger harvested 165 0040 ranger harvested 170

mstr rnger + mstr scout mstr ranger harvested 152 mstr scout harvested 135

mstr scout + 0040 scout mstr scout harvested 130 0040 scout harvested 126

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Mstr scout +0040 scout is same issue as mstr ranger + 0040 ranger, hence it needs adressing too.

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Limobacca wrote:

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Tiggs wrote:

Folks,

How about you jump on Test Center or TC-Gorath and do some tests. Let me know if Rangers/MRs are getting less then the group and I will bring those results to the team. Sound good? =)

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ok Tiggs here's what i got testing on TC-Gorath

same race and no tapes or droids for harvesting

mstr rnger + mstr ranger both got 40% bonus and same harvest amount

mstr rnger + 0040 ranger mstr ranger harvested 165 0040 ranger harvested 170

mstr rnger + mstr scout mstr ranger harvested 152 mstr scout harvested 135

mstr scout + 0040 scout mstr scout harvested 130 0040 scout harvested 126

all the harvests were off of same creater we hunted piket plainswalkers.

side note milk harvest while raised were not substantial to make a big impact only was able to milk 178 units as mstr ranger

the highlighted line however is the only point we noticed that needs to be addressed.

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Did you compare this to solo harvesting too? Can we see those numbers?

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DaveG wrote:

I'm not sure 'we' (as a community) should be testing this at all, by doing so we're validating an unfair system.

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If we don't test it, who will?
It doesn't get tested it doesn't get fixed.
We can test and NOT validate, by showing what IS wrong.
We can't show whats wrong by not testing.
We don't test, it goes in like this.
It goes in like this, well...

In short, you're testing a bonus system, so it's obvious that anyone in a group will harvest better than anyone solo. This is stating the obvious and is why I'm thinking testing is irrelavent.

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Almagill wrote:

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DaveG wrote:

I'm not sure 'we' (as a community) should be testing this at all, by doing so we're validating an unfair system.

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If we don't test it, who will?
It doesn't get tested it doesn't get fixed.
We can test and NOT validate, by showing what IS wrong.
We can't show whats wrong by not testing.
We don't test, it goes in like this.
It goes in like this, well...

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Okay, well when you do test, reserve a column to include solo harvest results!

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Vorpaks wrote:

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DaveG wrote:

I'm not sure 'we' (as a community) should be testing this at all, by doing so we're validating an unfair system.

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We dont teest it it goes in with no feedback at all and we figure out how it works when it hits live instead of now. Testing it (ie: figuring out how it works) will give us more info to combat it if it is unfair. We can combat nothing if we choose to remain ignorant.

Message Edited by Vorpaks on 02-19-2005 02:40 PM

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I understand that, but there's an over-ruling principal to argue here. Any bonus at all is unfair, simple as. That's not ignorance, it's just simple logic.

Testing will most likely lead to some sort of "tweaked" bonus system, and thus still lead to an unfair result.

Message Edited by DaveG on 02-19-2005 07:57 PM

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GreenDragonMaster wrote:
...If a bonus goes live, I'm going to be learning a new way to hunt. Not that I mind, change is good from time to time.

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Nobodies flaming.

We need to get the figures to show the Dev's, in real terms, what is wrong. Otherwise it gets dismissed as "oh, you're just using assumed numbers, you're wrong, we're right" of "it's working as intended"

If we can show the system is wrong there is MORE chance of getting the Zero Bonus through, if we can't show its wrong the existing system WILL end up ingame.

Then we've really got a problem.

Right now, we've got an opportunity.

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DaveG wrote:
Like it or not I won't give it a rest because I think this is fundamentally important to the game, not just the ranger profession.

This bonus system doesn't just encourage grouping, it forces it, that is wrong and I damn well am going to fight it. The majority view in this thread is that the bonuses should *probably* be dropped.

Simply removing the group harvesting penalty is all that's needed to encourage grouping. The devs need this getting through to them.

Yes the bonus system is plainly unbalanced, and yes it is an anti-incentive to rangers in particular, as it stands on TC now. That doesn't change the fact that the whole principal is wrong and unfair.

As I said, I think any discussion of test results will simply lead to a slightly more palatable version of the bonus system. Whatever form it takes, it's still fundamentally unfair. It is unacceptable.

Now, please stop flaming me, and start pushing Zero Bonus Zero Penalty to the devs. Use your test results if it helps.

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I'm not flaming you in the least. I'm just stating the facts. The devs do intend to move, not just this profession, but this game towards encouraging group play.

And if you'll read back to the beginning of the thread, when it was assumed that the master ranger leading the group (even if he/she was the sole master ranger in the group) would also get that 40% bonus just by being grouped, you'll see overwhelming support. (apart from your opinion that being "required" or "forced" to group was a bad idea). Obviously the old -40% grouping penalty should be removed.

I'm not flaming you.. I just think the idea of "being forced to group" is subjective. You recieve no penalty for hunting solo. You'll get the same as you always had.

The problem is that when Tiggs clarified that this change wasn't meant to be a bonus to master rangers, but rather all other levels of scout/rangers, that's where the complaints about this change started. And I agree with those complaints. Especially when it puts even the grouped master ranger at a disadvantage over his group members.

Another way of looking at this, I didn't invest MY time getting the skills that my character needed so as to be able to BUFF other players harvesting abilities.

I certainly wouldn't invest those same skill points in giving myself, by comparison, a nerf.

(BTW, the entertainer analogy that folk wer edragging out before? That ents can't buff themselves? Thats true, but they DO recieve a benefit from buffing, in the form of XP. We lose XP by doing this, by comparison)

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frightwig wrote:

I'm not flaming you.. I just think the idea of "being forced to group" is subjective. You recieve no penalty for hunting solo. You'll get the same as you always had.

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DaveG wrote:

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GreenDragonMaster wrote:
...If a bonus goes live, I'm going to be learning a new way to hunt. Not that I mind, change is good from time to time.

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How do you feel that you'll be learning a new way to hunt because you've effectively been told to, rather than doing it voluntarily?

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Yah, I know.... That does get me a little bit. I'm in the Military though, I'm used to being told how to do my job. lol Seriously though, I do want to group hunt, or at least try it. I understand your point, I'm one of your *probably* people. I think the sting of being forces to do something is just less for me cause I'm excited about group hunting. I'm also ecited about getting a bonus no matter how I get it.

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GreenDragonMaster wrote:


Yah, I know.... That does get me a little bit. I'm in the Military though, I'm used to being told how to do my job. lol Seriously though, I do want to group hunt, or at least try it. I understand your point, I'm one of your *probably* people. I think the sting of being forces to do something is just less for me cause I'm excited about group hunting. I'm also ecited about getting a bonus no matter how I get it.

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I run into that all that time..... Me: "Hey who wants to go Big Game Hunting....I don't care what we hunt as long as it's tough" Guildies: "Nah, I'm grinding Jedi" Me: "How can I trigger this T21 with my toe." LOL