Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
Kinshi wrote:
Almagill wrote:
Anyone got a link to a post or thread by a dev or other red-top saying that this is even being thought about as a serious proposal?
I dont have the link handy but Darth_Sushi first reported this over on the SL forums. It originated based on face to face discussion forums ar Fan Fest with the developers. (read Darth's ppost about the Fan Fest roundup)
Its true, this idea may not be seriously considered by the devs, but my goal is 2 fold..
1. If it is being considered by the devs in a serious manner, I want to capitalize on that line of thought and show them that yes, it is a good idea, with lots of merits, and that they could implement in a fashion that would take few resources and would prove attractive to the respective communities. (and yes you guys who hate the idea, may wind up liking it because some of you hated the CU but are still here..obviously you must be having a good time, so you could still have a good time)
If you arent having a good time playing SWG, why are you still playing?
Because of friends! As MRanger/MCH I did NOT respec. I said so before the curb and I'll stick with it. As MRanger/MCH I don't have much fun lately. I'm still considering walking my MRanger/CH out into the sunset...
2. If it is not being considered seriously, I want to capitalize on the fact it has been raised as a possibilty to them, and drive the idea ahead for the reasons listed above.
It's not all about YOU and what you want. The ranger community is divided. Some like it, some don't. It is not up to YOU to PUSH the idea forward.
Kinshi wrote:
Revamps not gonna happen, and yea maybe a merge isnt gonna happen either..but the chances for a merge happening and working are a LOT better than a revamp even occuring let alone working.
Who or what gives you that idea/impression. Your "business of SOE" or "programming wise"? Either way, SOE does not follow a logic path. You are trying to make it look like the merger is favored by SOE while you don't have any clue if it is really so.
[snip]
Rest of your post is removed, because it is repeating yourself and that has been answered before.
So wait....these last responses seem to be saying: "Well, some attention is better than no attention." and "Combining the two professions will increase our numbers making it more viable for the devs to pay attention to us." Try this:
If they merge the two, all the melee rangers drop the profession, then most of the SL's drop because they don't want to have to master scout to keep their profession (that was the original idea.......to make it valid for Rangers to have to master scout).
Then you have a smaller group than before, and we're still ignored.
I don't want to settle for some half-assed effort to fix the game. We've waited long enough, we shouldn't settle for something we don't want. Now, I can't speak for everyone else, but this isn't what I want, at least not if it is just thrown together and pushed out bug ridden and broken. And given the history of this company, I don't see anything else happening.
Kinshi wrote:
Almagill wrote:
Anyone got a link to a post or thread by a dev or other red-top saying that this is even being thought about as a serious proposal?
I dont have the link handy but Darth_Sushi first reported this over on the SL forums. It originated based on face to face discussion forums ar Fan Fest with the developers. (read Darth's ppost about the Fan Fest roundup)Its true, this idea may not be seriously considered by the devs, but my goal is 2 fold..
1. If it is being considered by the devs in a serious manner, I want to capitalize on that line of thought and show them that yes, it is a good idea, with lots of merits, and that they could implement in a fashion that would take few resources and would prove attractive to the respective communities. (and yes you guys who hate the idea, may wind up liking it because some of you hated the CU but are still here..obviously you must be having a good time, so you could still have a good time)
If you arent having a good time playing SWG, why are you still playing?
2. If it is not being considered seriously, I want to capitalize on the fact it has been raised as a possibilty to them, and drive the idea ahead for the reasons listed above.
So, no actual official line on this, just a reported comment from a PR event?
Unless you have some alternate route to get your proposal in front of the dev's, all you can do is the same thing as the rest of us. Put it on the forums and then wait and see. Once you raise an idea on the forums you can expect it to be discussed by all and sundry. Some of them may agree with your proposal, others may disagree, but as subscribing customers just like you, that is their right.
Some might say "I think this is a brilliant idea, wonderful, yes let's go for it..." but on the forums their opinion is worth no more or less than those who say "Nah, this looks like a bad move, let's focus on what we want for OUR profession rather than throw half out and take bits from elsewhere to patch up the holes".
"Be careful what you ask for, you might get it".
Kinshi wrote:
"I follow a Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way mantra"
Well, you just carry on leading. I think the black-hats went thataway.....
...send us a postcard when you get there
Kinshi wrote:
Almagill wrote:
Kinshi wrote:
"The idea has been presented, , thus you may do what you will with it."
We did. Thanks.
'We did' huh?I checked the tread, all 7 pages of it to see just who 'We' actually are. (unscinetifically of course, you can call AL Gore if you want a recount)18 people stating pro-merge opinions13 people stating anti-merge opinions11 people undecided (some leaning pro, some leaning against, some with no opinion but overall most seem to be wiling to give the idea additional consideration)and a small smattering of useless posts in betweenBasically we dont have any kind of consensu that the idea is either good or bad. Given the mixed nature of the reactions, Id say it definately needs to stay up for consideration.I am concerned about making this appealing to Squad Leaders..I am not out to hijack their profession and if they said in a strong voice "no way", the idea could be dropped. I want SL to get just as much as they give in this concept.If there are some Master Squad Leaders out there, Id like to hear your views, give you the chance to change my mind, or give me the chance to change yours :-)Message Edited by Kinshi on 06-09-2005 07:38 PM
As a former Master Squad Leader (I have held the title on my main for about a year total since launch), I don't like the merge idea. And I'm fairly sure most of the Squad Leaders on the forums would agree (although I don't and can't really speak for them).
As a Master Ranger (a title which I have held or been working towards on my main for probably close to 90% of the time this game has been out), I don't like the merge idea. I'll let the other Rangers in this forum speak for themselves.
As a former Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader combo (which I held for a significant portion of a year), I still don't like the idea. Both professions have a lot of potential in different directions and I'd rather not see most of that wasted by a merge.
As for waiting for a revamp, we would still need to wait around for the merge to happen if it were decided to be the "right" course of action. I'd much rather wait slightly longer to get two excellent professions than to get a quick fix (for example, camps used to repell agro--the quick fix for an exploit was to disable that shortly after launch). I don't like most of SoEs quick fixes.
Overall, I don't like the idea. It is like using a bandaid when you really need stitches. Yes, the bandaid might help and it might even be a good idea to use it but I'd much rather get the stitches.
Phenix, I believe you are correct. A merger would leave melee Rangers behind even more than they already are. SOE designed Squad Leader around a ranged combat class given all of its ranged accuracy and speed mods as well as profession specific pistols and carbines. SOE also geared Ranger towards the ranged professions in its ranged to hit mods. The merging of these classes in the short term however would make a lot of sense for SOE for several reasons however. Squad Leaders need to offer their groups more utility and Ranger needs a little more combat bang. Once you merge the two professions look at the combined template-- Ranged Speed Mod, Ranged Accuracy Mod, Melee Def, Ranged Def, State Removal, Powerup Group Defense, Powerup Group Accuracy, Group Terrain Negotiaion bonus, Group Burst Run on demand, Ranger Traps, Ranger Harvest Bonus, Camo, Area Track, oh and camps =) I think it is clear tat while not ideal from many of our standpoints the combined template breeds a very group utility oriented profession that when added to a ranged combat class would do very well. From an SOE point of view I imagine that this would allow them to shelf or indefinitely postpone a revamp of two profs and move on to other areas of the game that need attention. Does that mean they couldn't tweak it to be melee profession friendly? Maybe/Maybe not but it beats waiting another 1-2 years for a possible revamp that you may dislike more. It may be better to help them merge these two professions.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Hmm...I was trying to find one of my posts and it appears it was deleted. Somebody must've alerted a mod or something.Man I hate when that happens.
Anyway, just for clarification to a point I was making earlier (for purposes of discussion, not argument).
I've claimed that most (if not all) melee Rangers would leave if the merger happened. Kinshi asked me why I would say this. I'll explain. First off, every time we've discussed reducing the skillpoint cost of Ranger, there's been a roadbump-- the fact is that every line of Ranger is built off of every line of scout. So even the hybrid profession would need all four lines of scout inorder to justify the modifiers and all of the skills. In addition, since mods like camping, trapping, etc. are all built up from what you get in scout (meaning if you didn't have the lines in scout, your modifier would be so low you couldn't use the trap/camps found in Ranger) you can't remove the pre-reqs. In addition, if we're going to have SL skills in the hybrid, we'll need the Ranged Support line from their tree.
Now to get all of that, and a melee profession mastery leaves you with -25 skillpoints. Even if you drop the scout pre-reqs to 2 lines ( evens up to 241 skillpoints) you'd be much better off taking a ranged profession. Right now, there is no difference for Rangers- melee and Ranged (aside from BH) cost the same. For the hybrid if it needed only two lines of scout the ranged combatant would have 38 skillpoints left over-- enough for all their lines of FS skills, whereas a melee person would have to drop melee or hybrid skills in order to pick up FS.
THAT is why a merger is unfair to any of the melee professions. It gives Ranged Pathfinders a much more powerful template (since you can add, for example, the entire defensive tree from Pistoleer to any ranged template) and it makes them able to get FS skills without dropping other skills.
Of course, it is technically impossible to remove the pre-reqs for Ranger without affecting the elite skills. Thus they'd either have to remove camping and trapping from the hybrid (since you can't have traps madein the elite class that the elite class can't use) or they'd have to rework scout in such a way that the mods don't stack the way they do. Of course, if you're re-working scout from the bottom up...why not just re-work the elite classes?
Of course, this is just for the purposes of discussion. I don't mean to incite anger or have people report my posts to the moderators. I find it disturbing that any posts here would be reported. From what I've seen, everybody's been polite. No cry's of "S7FU, N00B". No insults. Just discussion. If we're so sensitive that we can't handle dissenting opinions...we as a group need to growup.
Message Edited by Serraphin on 06-11-2005 02:57 AM
Ok my pitiful 2 cents worth.
Over all good Idea. They would compliment each other and probably give SOE a easy out. I would like to see them stay seperate but the reality is that after being a ranger for over a year and have only seen minor fixes then I think this is best. It would also explain the high skill point cost and it would still have to be a calling for most people as the time it now takes with CU would annoy the average person to hell and back.
Meridith/Kordia
Phenix1050 wrote:
I do want things to happen to ranger... and soon. but I'd rather have a GOOD revamp than a FAST one.
I just don't see the desire of giving SOE the easy way out. Nobody speeds up when they're about to run into a brick wall...
Nah, I think it's more of an observation people are making, rather than what they want to have happen...
I keep seeing the "easier for SOE" comments too, but no one is suggesting that they'd like it that way... The comments are based more on a track record based on past "improvements".
Honestly, the community doesn't have a vote when it comes to "good" fixes over "fast/easy" fixes.