Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
As you say, it might simply be because I'm a ranged class so need that by default - but all the character builders I've seen say it only need Scout xxx4. They may be wrong and I may be wrong, just trying to clarify.
If it is correct, and we don't need ranged support, fantastic! The skill point argument is moot. All that needs done is to add melee mods as well, where ranged mods are currently listed.
If it's wrong, and we do need ranged support, then simply drop that req and make it Master Scout only. Less logical, I'll agree, but I can't really see anyway round that at present. And again, apply melee mods in there.
Then the combined class fits for both styles of play.
I can also see where you are coming from in terms of the ranger mods building on scout mods, making the full scout tree a requirement for the combined profession (and indeed the existing ranger - which is now obvious to me why they didn't change the reqs on it). And again I can't see any way round that, other than re-jigging the scout trees so that only 2 lines have the mods used again in ranger, and having the other 2 as generally useful mods (such as exploration).
(These are very good points, and something I don't think many have thought that bit through - 5 star post on clarifing it so well, IMO)
But, even if it was only Scout skill prereqs, that still wouldn't change the fact that SLs would need to take extra Scout skills to get the new profession.
Phenix1050 wrote:
MeridithGentry wrote:
Ok my pitiful 2 cents worth.
Over all good Idea. They would compliment each other and probably give SOE a easy out. I would like to see them stay seperate but the reality is that after being a ranger for over a year and have only seen minor fixes then I think this is best. It would also explain the high skill point cost and it would still have to be a calling for most people as the time it now takes with CU would annoy the average person to hell and back.
Just to address this: I've seen this logic used a lot in this thread. That merging the two will be faster and easier for SOE to do. I'm telling you from experience, SOE does NOT do good work when they focus on speed and efficiency. Look at the CURB. For those of you who weren't in the Alpha, there were TWO other versions of the CURB, both of which would've been (in my opinion) much better than what we ended up with. The new system is okay, but the other versions would've been more focused around tactical combat and intelligent gameplay...sadly, we ended up with the most simplistic and level-oriented style of combat that made me avoid other MMORPGs.
I feel your pain but that is the reality of MMOs especially SOE MMOs. They are going to gear the game for the least common denominator, whatever produces the highest net gain on overall subscribers at the lowest cost to themselves. (have to look at SOE in a business sense, not a creative sense). Fact is SOE doesn't hardly have a creative bone in their corporate body (thats why their best designers leave and start new companies eventually). They are the Denny's of the MMO market...passable food, realtively cheap, lots of it, and they are easy to find.
I do want things to happen to ranger... and soon. but I'd rather have a GOOD revamp than a FAST one.
So do I, where we differ is that I do not belive we will see the revamp we want, and we are going to have to find the next best solution, and knowing somewhat how SOE thinks, this would be right up their alley and not all that bad. The tradeoffs are not that big in the grand scheme of things. THe communities gain a whole lot more than they lose.
I just don't see the desire of giving SOE the easy way out. Nobody speeds up when they're about to run into a brick wall...
Ive seen this sentiment echoed here a bit, but I see like this..do you continue driving towards the brick wall, knowing you WILL hit it or do you take a chance speed up, and potentially swerve around it? The current revamppath is a guranteed dead end/brick wall from what I can tell, and I am not seeing much dissenting opinion on that notion. Again, the benefits far outweigh the risks.
BioEngine wrote:
Nemo0 wrote:
SL prereqs are Ranged Support 4 and Survival 4. Used to need Exploration 4 as well.
But, even if it was only Scout skill prereqs, that still wouldn't change the fact that SLs would need to take extra Scout skills to get the new profession.
Which would mean that the hybrid profession would cost 5 points less than Ranger right now?
Ranger Support IV: 29 skill points
Survival IV: 29 skill points
Another Tree: 14 skill points
Novice Hybrid profession: 6 skill points
All four trees of this profession: 56 skill points
Master of the hybrid profession: 1 skill point
All of this adds up to 135.
5 less if you drop a significant portion of the Ranger requirements (i.e. 2 trees of it). But that would still mean 14 more skill points needed by every SL now. I personally am not that big a fan of removing Ranger prereqs (the profession follows too much off of Master Scout) and I don't think most SLs will be in favor of forcing even another 14 skill points into their requirements.
Nemo0 wrote:
SL prereqs are Ranged Support 4 and Survival 4. Used to need Exploration 4 as well.
But, even if it was only Scout skill prereqs, that still wouldn't change the fact that SLs would need to take extra Scout skills to get the new profession.
Which would mean that the hybrid profession would cost5 points less than Ranger right now?
Ranger Support IV: 29 skill points
Survival IV: 29 skill points
Another Tree: 14 skill points
Novice Hybrid profession: 6 skill points
All four trees of this profession: 56 skill points
Master of the hybrid profession: 1 skill point
All of this adds up to 135.
Phenix1050 wrote:
I'm of the mindset that the two are intrinsically different and have no business being together. They, only on surface level, are similar, but a deeper understanding of what it means to be each reveals that the mindset and goals of the people who PLAY the profession are different. I would much rather have them come up with unique ideas for each and make each profession unique and interesting.
However, having been in the CURB Alpha, I can tell you that SOE has a history of focusing more on expediency than actual thought. Taking the guts of combat systems from other games and stapling them to SOE, re-hashing the same basic concepts, all of this came about because they were forced by a deadline. So I don't hold much hope that if a developer thinks slapping two professions together will solve the problem quickly (if not 100% correctly) then that's what will happen. The problem to me is that this idea is gaining people's "meh" vote. Meaning that let people see the potential danger in this.
I for one want Rangers to be unique. That means independant of Squad Leader. But I fear that developers will go with what is speedy, rather than what the community wants, especially in a case where so few people are involved. New ideas need to be put in, but new idea also means uncharted territory and more work. Slapping two professions together simply means changing the existing code and the text for the profession. So the skeptic in me thinks that this is likely-- but will likely be the doom of both professions.
I agree completely phenix, I can back him up about our experiences on the alpha forums. (I am posting on another account because the mods don't like me) Phenix I want you to look on the commando forums, there is an excellent idea titled "Every age has its wars, and every war has its legends" It's geared towards commando's but the general idea could be put in ranger terms. I think you could come up with some excellent ideas.
As another veteran of the CURB alpha team, I will tell you that Phenix is on target with this comment. The sad fact is that the alpha sandbox team never saw a playable CU until every other player of the game was invited to log into the CU TC; in fact, it took many of us days to get in to do the testing we were hand picked to participate in.
Phenix1050 wrote:
MeridithGentry wrote:
Ok my pitiful 2 cents worth.
Over all good Idea. They would compliment each other and probably give SOE a easy out. I would like to see them stay seperate but the reality is that after being a ranger for over a year and have only seen minor fixes then I think this is best. It would also explain the high skill point cost and it would still have to be a calling for most people as the time it now takes with CU would annoy the average person to hell and back.
Just to address this: I've seen this logic used a lot in this thread. That merging the two will be faster and easier for SOE to do. I'm telling you from experience, SOE does NOT do good work when they focus on speed and efficiency. Look at the CURB. For those of you who weren't in the Alpha, there were TWO other versions of the CURB, both of which would've been (in my opinion) much better than what we ended up with. The new system is okay, but the other versions would've been more focused around tactical combat and intelligent gameplay...sadly, we ended up with the most simplistic and level-oriented style of combat that made me avoid other MMORPGs.
I do want things to happen to ranger... and soon. but I'd rather have a GOOD revamp than a FAST one.
I just don't see the desire of giving SOE the easy way out. Nobody speeds up when they're about to run into a brick wall...
TK-863 wrote:
My 2 credits (for what it is worth)
The logic behind setting lower priorities for less popular proffessions confounds me. It's a vicouse cycle. less attention payed to a proffession, the fewer people play it, so the lower priority it goes.
Before they merge SL and ranger, why don't they fix the Proffessions, then see how popular they become. It was a sad day for me last week when I had to tell an old RL friend of mine to not go SL becase it was completely and utterly broken.
I suppose it boils down to how many people are coming to Sony and saying "I want to be a Ranger or I want to be a Squad Leader" which sadly there arent a lot of people doing that, compared to other professions.
Message Edited by Kinshi on 06-14-2005 03:59 PM
Message Edited by Rolfie on 06-15-2005 07:28 AM
Rolfie wrote:
Slept on it decided this was an inproper post on my part.
Look this thread has gone on for 8 pages so far with you trying to convince Rangers your way is the best way.
Thanks but I am still not convinced Ranger and Squad Leader need to or Should merge.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 06-15-2005 07:28 AM
Thats ok :-) Im all ears for an alternative to be presented that actually has a chance of being implemented by SOE.
If you have something that fits the bill, Im happy to hear about it. I howver remian unconvinced we will se our desired 'revamp' and think this is a chance to make our abilites more useful to the rest of the game.
But if you do have an alternate plan that would be accepted by SOE and has a high likleyhood of being implemented, by all means present it
We all have our 'wish' list but we need to narrow it now toa 'reality' list (hell I want Ranger to be uber and not have to worry about SLs stuff but Ranger just hasnt been getting fixed has it? (in fact it just keeps getting worse).