Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Kinshi wrote:
Again folks they key to getting desirable changes from SOE to our professions is to remeber that SOE is a business, and to get what we want we must address it in terms of why what we want is a good business decision for them.
So, tell me how you would convey this to them.
As a business plan, plain and simple. Show them why it is worth it for them to do so in terms they understand. Obviously changes are on their plate but the priority is really low. SHow them community support for a method that give us both a lot, while making less work for them, and that gives them legitimate reasons to raise the priority of the work.
Dont think I dont want Squad Leader or Ranger to be revamped into the MMO class of my dreams like everyone else but given the sheer size and scope of what we want, its not likely to happen because its of little value to SOE to do those things.Squad Leader is no different.
We could sit here for months on months like we have been, thumping on the revamp drum, and all we have gotten so far from SOE is them telling us it farther out now. Thats right, all we have gotten for our idealism thus far is to have our revamps pushed even lower in priority by SOE.
And thats the way a business operates, the larger the project with the lower the Return on Investment means it goes lower in priority until someone figures out a way to make it happen in such a way to make it worth the effort. Right now, its simply NOT worth SOE's time and money and devs to do major revamps on two unpopular professions in the game. I am sorry to have to keep repeating this but I am compelled to do so in the face of what sometimes appears to be blind idealism.
I think we all understand that. Now, if we are not important enough to be look at seperately, what makes you think they want to take the time to look at us together? We will still be fewer in numbers than (almost) any other profession). Also, how come no one considers the vicious cycle we are in. We can't bet better skills (via a revamp) becuse we are too few in number, and we can't gain more numbers until we get better skills. How will that change if we ask to be merged? We are still in the same boat, but a lot of us will lose our playstyle.
because 1 profession from a coding standpoint is easier to deal with one profession than 2 separate ones, and all the code for both is already written. Otherwise, they are looking at a development effort require both professions to be re-written to make them the way everyone wants. Thats expensive for them to do in terms of developer man-hours.
Im an idealist guy too, dont get me wrong, but I am a realist too. I dont think this idea is the best in terms of both SLs & Rangers getting everything we want. But I do hope this makes both SL's & Rangers realize what the other profession has to offer. I belive I have offered up some very poignant examples of just how well SL & Ranger fit together.
OK, so you feel that SL and Ranger fits together, but what about those of us that don't? Many of us think that Ranger and Riflemen fit together extremely well (from RL examples); why not merge them?
Rifleman dont need any other professions to stand on their own as a profession (in terms of being a viable profession). They dont have the multitude of problems or role definition problems like we face.) And I dont want us being cast aside like ID's and Politicians as being useless to all the other professions.
Rangers, you would benefit from learning more about SL's, and SL's, take a hard look at Rangering an what we do, (and want to be). The big benefit here for both of us is that this idea would provide both professions with more type of play opportunities while letting us play the same way we do now. Its quite literally the best of both worlds.
How can we play the same way if we lose some skills? Don't think that a merge will be straight across; both professions will have to lose skills so as to not make them overpowered.
Look hard at both skillsets..a merge of professions give us nothing overpowering as one profession. We have 2 already underpowered professions. What we would get is one profession that can solo really well if they want and becomes a real asset to a group. More options for the player of the unified profession. Besides, SL abilities need a group to function, and Ranger abilities are best served solo for the most part.
Only the true, hard core, persistentpessimists believe that merging 2 broken professions into one will yeild a single broken profession. I beilive down deep, those folks dont think that a revamp of their professions will work either. Fact is a revamp of either profession is still very likely to result in a screwed up profession, just like what we have now.
Lol, only the true, hard core, persistent optimists believe that merging 2 brokn professions into 1 will yield a single working profession! I believe down deep that we cannever be happy with any potential outcome for the future of Ranger. The devs have shown us that getting all we want (even if we were to dictate the terms of a merge) can't and won't ever happen.
Well maybe we should give up and become Jedi then,,because I havent seen any other solutions presented on this forum other than sit, wait, and complain. This could have a chance of being acted on by SOE. The 'revamps' who knows..best we have now is "maybe sometime".
At least with the merge idea, we both can gain a level of new abilities, and play opportunites,even if the resulting profession is not ideal. That alone is worth doing this. That and the fact this idea would not be difficult or expensive for SOE to implement.
Sorry, but talk of money does not apply here. You have no idea of what the costs of developing and coding and testing and implementing and bug fixing will be for SOE. The one thing I learned from my Corr days is that the devs hate to hear, "it's easier to do x than y."
I very much know what it takes to develop large software systems. I have been employed 15+ years as a Engineer and Solutions Architect. The implementations may vary, but the concepts of software development remain the same. I disagree with you thinking 'devs hate to hear'. because they appreciate solutions that dont waste their time, and Product Managers appreciate solutions that dont waste money. It is very much a fiscal decision for SOE when they decide how to direct their development efforts. Devs also dont like to hear 'pie in the sky' ideas that they know they could never get implemented, no matter how cool they are.
I would rather our profession survive as a unified profession rather than continue to atrophy alone. Our numbers are not getting bigger, most people do not buy SWG thinkiing "OMG I get to be a Squad Leader or a Ranger". Its why people are flowing into the Bounty Hunter/Jedi arenas, and the pure combat professions. By ourselves we are only marginally useful to the bulk of the SWG population butwe have a chance here to be incredibly useful to the bulk of the population, a shot at making a unified profession a top tier profession to play, with all the benefits that go with it. Its a chance worth taking.
Rangers, take a SL out on a group hunt, see how their skills enhance your own. Watch their abilities help you drop creatures faster.
SLs seek out some Rangers, and watch how they help your group control aggro and make life easier by finding your targets faster. Watch how the Rangers make your group a ton of money via the sale of their harvested resources.
Honestly, Rangers & SLs need to seek each other out so they can witness first hand the synergy that exists between the 2 profs out in the field. Dont take my word for it, try it out. SLs have a Master Ranger put some camo on you and see how little aggro you get as you do your tasks/ Rangers watch how easy the SL makes it for you to focus on a single target in the middle of the herd.
Try it out and see first hand what I am talking about.
The bottom line is, if you want SL and Ranger, you CAN pick them both up. Merging the profession is not the answer. A merger will result in nothing more that parting us out to another professions (which is already happening). The Ranger profession can not remain intact in a merger.
Real bottom line is our respective professions are dying, we are losing more players than we are gaining and that is not likely to change any time soon. Dying professions are inheirently unattractive to newcomers if not a repellent. If we dont get a viable solution soon, there wont be enough of us left for SOE, or anyone else to give a damn about.
Serraphin wrote:
Again I have to agree with Calc here. This forum as a group will never be happy with any implementation of Ranger because there is no "one" or single view of Ranger. Many here view Ranger as the ultimate Hunter or woodsman. Others of use view Ranger more along the lines of a Special Forces unit (i.e. along the lines of an Army Ranger). Ranger can not be both.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Kinshi wrote:
..........
Only the true, hard core, persistentpessimists believe that merging 2 broken professions into one will yeild a single broken profession. I beilive down deep, those folks dont think that a revamp of their professions will work either. Fact is a revamp of either profession is still very likely to result in a screwed up profession, just like what we have now.
(QFE) Lol, only the true, hard core, persistent optimists believe that merging 2 brokn professions into 1 will yield a single working profession! I believe down deep that we cannever be happy with any potential outcome for the future of Ranger. The devs have shown us that getting all we want (even if we were to dictate the terms of a merge) can't and won't ever happen.
......
The bottom line is, if you want SL and Ranger, you CAN pick them both up. Merging the profession is not the answer. A merger will result in nothing more that parting us out to another professions (which is already happening). The Ranger profession can not remain intact in a merger.
Almagill wrote:
Anyone got a link to a post or thread by a dev or other red-top saying that this is even being thought about as a serious proposal?
I dont have the link handy but Darth_Sushi first reported this over on the SL forums. It originated based on face to face discussion forums ar Fan Fest with the developers. (read Darth's ppost about the Fan Fest roundup)
Its true, this idea may not be seriously considered by the devs, but my goal is 2 fold..
1. If it is being considered by the devs in a serious manner, I want to capitalize on that line of thought and show them that yes, it is a good idea, with lots of merits, and that they could implement in a fashion that would take few resources and would prove attractive to the respective communities. (and yes you guys who hate the idea, may wind up liking it because some of you hated the CU but are still here..obviously you must be having a good time, so you could still have a good time)
If you arent having a good time playing SWG, why are you still playing?
2. If it is not being considered seriously, I want to capitalize on the fact it has been raised as a possibilty to them, and drive the idea ahead for the reasons listed above.
earthshredder wrote:
OK. I have pretty much read through this whole post, and at 6 pages I was quite impressed. But what really impresses me is Kinshi's insight and intelligent arguments for this idea.
Since he has come to our Guild, he has shown his vast knowledge of the game and insight into seeing that something needs to be done about our lack of attention in this game. Not only Rangers, but also Squad Leaders. But so far all I have seen from this community is bashing and knashing.
Please point out ANY bashing and knashing done? As you said, this is an idea and Kinshi has presented his ideas. Other rangers tosses ideas and arguments around and came up with others, and also intelligent arguments. As far as I know, we all just are behaving civilized and in a well mannered way with this idea. Frankly, you saying this community is bashing and knashing is a slap in the face and an insult.
I for one agree with Kinshi. It is a thing of beauty to witness the effects that a Squad Leader has on a group of Master Rangers. When we hunt, we HUNT! We annihalate, and I mean ANNIHALATE! To see up to 7 Master Rangers, cause thats all we can get in the group plus the SL hunt in the manner and fashion that a unit can is astoundhing.
It might be. It might also be good to have 2 rifelman, 1 doc, 1 cm, 2 rangers,a tkm and a smuggler in a group or whatever. Point I want to make is: if the group is having fun, is working together, wether you are with 3 or 8 in a group makes no difference. SL and Ranger have DIFFERENT ideas. They only share a few base lines in scout, but in the field out there (and also in RP) the whole "lifestyle" is completely different.
(come hang out with our Guild. But wait...you don't even know us and you judge us. typical. Actually we have out of our members 4 Rifleman 4 BH 1 CM 2 TKM 1 Swordsman 3 or 4 Carbineers , but you wouldn't know that))
But I want to see where we have been given any attention in the last two years of playing this game. Lets see........
1. Camps were nerfed because people didn't want to have to stop, have a Scout or Ranger with them to get vehicles mounts etc.. (thanks for going to bat for us on that one)
Thus the idea was mentioned to make camps more usefull. I'm too lazy to make a link. Hint: MODULAR camps. Which will be able to benefit a lot of professions, and as far as I know, was preceived that way by all communities involved.
(Yeah, I've read that thread along with all of the original postings from N'Raas (who was the best corr weve ever had) So I've seen it and still nothing on it....or can you give me some info I don't know)
2. BH didn't feel the need to have scout as prereq for their profession ( can anyone say mass numbers produce)
Well, the good BH's exempt, we all know where that is coming from. ...
(It doesn't matter who's exempt, the point is it got done...get it?)
3. Oh yeah, that next expansion for Ranger should be coming out because were so vocal and ournumbers influence the game (uh..not)
Point is, we aren't. Unlike some others. Don't get me wrong... People already know I have not a single grain of respect left for SOE, but in the end, all the yelling, shouting for attention will be the downfall.
(Yeah and Jedi and Wookies should be exempt)
4.Artisnas, ARTISANS! complained so much that they get to use camo kits without us, oh wait that's everyone can now. (another thanks for going to bat for us on that one)
Yeah, well, I already said in the beginnin of the CURB document all arti's would get a hard time. It's hard, yes. But there are ways AROUND it. Giving out our skills is just plain blunt and has made the lot of us VERY angry. Besides, I think, it's not so effective after all.
(Oh,so if someone bashes your head with a bat, wouldn't it make ya mad? Or is it not so effective after all?)
5.Lets not mention traps.(still waiting, get those devs for us. cause we know you can)
See 1.
And let me guess, your gonna say 'But we tried to talk to them, but they didn't wanna listen", Ya know what...BS!
Why is that BS? It's a known fact they ignore the Ranger community. Why else are Ranger ideas taken and given to OTHER professions? It's a fact.
(Exactly. This has gotten us no where. But our skills being dolled out to people who didn't need them)
Our paitence, being nice, not making a squeak (oh well, they will get to us in the next 5 years or so..ho-hum) has produced nothing...nada...zip! But someone comes with a viable suggestion, and it's shot down with old promises and visions of dilusion. No one in this thread has had any viable argument for this except "well they said that were gonna be next right after smuggler, yeah and lets see, the next jedi revamp , BH revamp, Doctor revamp,(because those guys will make the noise). And what will come out of this camp..........(hear that..NOTHING!).
And here you get me pissed of. I will stay nice tho. Get some glasses and read the posts again. One of my MAIN issues is: why would they merge SL and Ranger, if they can't fix EITHER of them within a reasonable time frame, HOW can you expect them (SOE) to merge them and have a WORKING SL/Ranger Profession?
Hint: look at the CURB... What they did/how they did it....
(Uh..read that too. Notice how before we made a stink that we weren't gonna be considered combat profession, that's the only time I have seen that happen)
Know what guys, come up with something anything. Do your job. Make me (the guy who also plays the game) happy. Find a better idea then. Ask the jedi corr what he does to get results because whomever your talking to now ain't cuttin' it. And go ahead, bash, insult, make fun of, trash, and whatever. But ya know something, I am just as mad as you are..maybe even more because nothing has been done for our profession. And I for one am tired of it. I want results, and were not gettin' em.
So give Kinshi a break. And just kinda say "Hey not a bad idea", because I haven't seen anything that even comes close to this.
You know what? You should give it a rest and move on... As in l33t speak: "move on, this is not the thread you're looking for" or something like that. You read things that are not there and in the process you alienate the Ranger community.
(Know what, NO! Thats the problem...get it? Give it a rest, we have for too long. And what's to show for it? Answer that one. This is the typical response for the whole thing. Give it a rest it'll be OK., calm down everything will be fine. They'll get to us eventually . And as we sit back and let them take away camps, camo, tracking (if BH got there way, which I hope to see a big no to). And were already alienated, or haven't you been looking?)
Very witty, sir, but ultimately unhelpful to either getting a revamp or for getting a merge.
Almagill wrote:
Kinshi wrote:
"I follow a Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way mantra"
Well, you just carry on leading. I think the black-hats went thataway.....
...send us a postcard when you get there
Actually, the CU has brought a HUGE upswing in new SLs, both in terms of new players and older players. True, there is almost no point to mastering SL currently, but our growth has been tremendous. I'm on a fairly small server, and I normally see at least one other SL during every game session, and its not the same person every time.
Kinshi wrote:
I want to stop the slow bleeding out of membersfrom our professions but I am not going to be a martyr for a lost cause either. Thats why I respec'ed out of Master Ranger because I didnt see a viable solution. And after playing SL, I came to see first hand how quickly you run into the roadblocks there too.
In the end, its all about how fun the professions are to play, and its no fun when nobody cares about your profession or seeks you out. We need new members and to get and keep new members, the profession has to be fun (and I think after doing both Ranger & SL, a combined profession would be fun for all of us, make it a desirable class to play and attact new members).
Rangers in my view were solitary master creature hunters, or that was the goal anyway. I know that's not everyones perspective. This seems like a mix of a solitary proffesion with a naturally social profession. I can't see a reason to keep it if they merge, I don't want to lead people.
"The idea has been presented, , thus you may do what you will with it."
We did. Thanks.
