Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Lol...I agreed with your first post in this thread...it threw me for a loop. And, you made me laugh with the muddy soldier comment... Dare I say this signifies the end of the Galaxy?
The end of the Galaxy? Hmm.. I hope not.. I'd miss it. Otoh, maybe it's a new beginning
End of which Galaxy?
I knew they were going to have to do a server merge at some point! 
((Walks away from thread again))
Message Edited by DaveG on 06-09-2005 10:03 AM
WornTraveler wrote:well I just asked Tiggs ifthis was oficcially being considered to happen, and the answer was a simple no...
However, a lot of the things we have/are asking for, would come with SL... ( combat related primarily ).
My main concern is that one of the professions would have to stray from what players envision it to be, Ranger = Recon vs. SL = Group leader. The game just isn't diversed enough to support 2 Squad professions. Maybe they could turn SL into a faction profession, one Rebel and one Imperial and build them much like the pilot professions. You could work your way through the profession, with one tree dedicated to ranks so you could climb the profession and still be, say, an Imperial Stormtrooper.
Then they could turn Ranger into the Group Leader profession for all things not faction-related?
Maybe we could even drop creature harvesting from Ranger and put all the mods in Scout?
Traps and camo should stay Ranger in order to justify the power we're asking those to skills to have, read: on par with elite combat professions weapons.
Oku Kee'lus OK. I have pretty much read through this whole post, and at 6 pages I was quite impressed. But what really impresses me is Kinshi's insight and intelligent arguments for this idea.
Since he has come to our Guild, he has shown his vast knowledge of the game and insight into seeing that something needs to be done about our lack of attention in this game. Not only Rangers, but also Squad Leaders. But so far all I have seen from this community is bashing and knashing.
I for one agree with Kinshi. It is a thing of beauty to witness the effects that a Squad Leader has on a group of Master Rangers. When we hunt, we HUNT! We annihalate, and I mean ANNIHALATE! To see up to 7 Master Rangers, cause thats all we can get in the group plus the SL hunt in the manner and fashion that a unit can is astoundhing.
But I want to see where we have been given any attention in the last two years of playing this game. Lets see........
1. Camps were nerfed because people didn't want to have to stop, have a Scout or Ranger with them to get vehicles mounts etc.. (thanks for going to bat for us on that one)
2. BH didn't feel the need to have scout as prereq for their profession ( can anyone say mass numbers produce)
3. Oh yeah, that next expansion for Ranger should be coming out because were so vocal and ournumbers influence the game (uh..not)
4.Artisnas, ARTISANS! complained so much that they get to use camo kits without us, oh wait that's everyone can now. (another thanks for going to bat for us on that one)
5.Lets not mention traps.(still waiting, get those devs for us. cause we know you can)
And let me guess, your gonna say 'But we tried to talk to them, but they didn't wanna listen", Ya know what...BS!
Our paitence, being nice, not making a squeak (oh well, they will get to us in the next 5 years or so..ho-hum) has produced nothing...nada...zip! But someone comes with a viable suggestion, and it's shot down with old promises and visions of dilusion. No one in this thread has had any viable argument for this except "well they said that were gonna be next right after smuggler, yeah and lets see, the next jedi revamp , BH revamp, Doctor revamp,(because those guys will make the noise). And what will come out of this camp..........(hear that..NOTHING!).
Know what guys, come up with something anything. Do your job. Make me (the guy who also plays the game) happy. Find a better idea then. Ask the jedi corr what he does to get results because whomever your talking to now ain't cuttin' it. And go ahead, bash, insult, make fun of, trash, and whatever. But ya know something, I am just as mad as you are..maybe even more because nothing has been done for our profession. And I for one am tired of it. I want results, and were not gettin' em.
So give Kinshi a break. And just kinda say "Hey not a bad idea", because I haven't seen anything that even comes close to this.
Message Edited by earthshredder on 06-09-2005 10:40 AM
earthshredder wrote:
OK. I have pretty much read through this whole post, and at 6 pages I was quite impressed. But what really impresses me is Kinshi's insight and intelligent arguments for this idea.
Since he has come to our Guild, he has shown his vast knowledge of the game and insight into seeing that something needs to be done about our lack of attention in this game. Not only Rangers, but also Squad Leaders. But so far all I have seen from this community is bashing and knashing.
Please point out ANY bashing and knashing done? As you said, this is an idea and Kinshi has presented his ideas. Other rangers tosses ideas and arguments around and came up with others, and also intelligent arguments. As far as I know, we all just are behaving civilized and in a well mannered way with this idea. Frankly, you saying this community is bashing and knashing is a slap in the face and an insult.
I for one agree with Kinshi. It is a thing of beauty to witness the effects that a Squad Leader has on a group of Master Rangers. When we hunt, we HUNT! We annihalate, and I mean ANNIHALATE! To see up to 7 Master Rangers, cause thats all we can get in the group plus the SL hunt in the manner and fashion that a unit can is astoundhing.
It might be. It might also be good to have 2 rifelman, 1 doc, 1 cm, 2 rangers,a tkm and a smuggler in a group or whatever. Point I want to make is: if the group is having fun, is working together, wether you are with 3 or 8 in a group makes no difference. SL and Ranger have DIFFERENT ideas. They only share a few base lines in scout, but in the field out there (and also in RP) the whole "lifestyle" is completely different.
But I want to see where we have been given any attention in the last two years of playing this game. Lets see........
1. Camps were nerfed because people didn't want to have to stop, have a Scout or Ranger with them to get vehicles mounts etc.. (thanks for going to bat for us on that one)
Thus the idea was mentioned to make camps more usefull. I'm too lazy to make a link. Hint: MODULAR camps. Which will be able to benefit a lot of professions, and as far as I know, was preceived that way by all communities involved.
2. BH didn't feel the need to have scout as prereq for their profession ( can anyone say mass numbers produce)
Well, the good BH's exempt, we all know where that is coming from. ...
3. Oh yeah, that next expansion for Ranger should be coming out because were so vocal and ournumbers influence the game (uh..not)
Point is, we aren't. Unlike some others. Don't get me wrong... People already know I have not a single grain of respect left for SOE, but in the end, all the yelling, shouting for attention will be the downfall.
4.Artisnas, ARTISANS! complained so much that they get to use camo kits without us, oh wait that's everyone can now. (another thanks for going to bat for us on that one)
Yeah, well, I already said in the beginnin of the CURB document all arti's would get a hard time. It's hard, yes. But there are ways AROUND it. Giving out our skills is just plain blunt and has made the lot of us VERY angry. Besides, I think, it's not so effective after all.
5.Lets not mention traps.(still waiting, get those devs for us. cause we know you can)
See 1.
And let me guess, your gonna say 'But we tried to talk to them, but they didn't wanna listen", Ya know what...BS!
Why is that BS? It's a known fact they ignore the Ranger community. Why else are Ranger ideas taken and given to OTHER professions? It's a fact.
Our paitence, being nice, not making a squeak (oh well, they will get to us in the next 5 years or so..ho-hum) has produced nothing...nada...zip! But someone comes with a viable suggestion, and it's shot down with old promises and visions of dilusion. No one in this thread has had any viable argument for this except "well they said that were gonna be next right after smuggler, yeah and lets see, the next jedi revamp , BH revamp, Doctor revamp,(because those guys will make the noise). And what will come out of this camp..........(hear that..NOTHING!).
And here you get me pissed of. I will stay nice tho. Get some glasses and read the posts again. One of my MAIN issues is: why would they merge SL and Ranger, if they can't fix EITHER of them within a reasonable time frame, HOW can you expect them (SOE) to merge them and have a WORKING SL/Ranger Profession?
Hint: look at the CURB... What they did/how they did it....
Know what guys, come up with something anything. Do your job. Make me (the guy who also plays the game) happy. Find a better idea then. Ask the jedi corr what he does to get results because whomever your talking to now ain't cuttin' it. And go ahead, bash, insult, make fun of, trash, and whatever. But ya know something, I am just as mad as you are..maybe even more because nothing has been done for our profession. And I for one am tired of it. I want results, and were not gettin' em.
So give Kinshi a break. And just kinda say "Hey not a bad idea", because I haven't seen anything that even comes close to this.
You know what? You should give it a rest and move on... As in l33t speak: "move on, this is not the thread you're looking for" or something like that. You read things that are not there and in the process you alienate the Ranger community.
Also, how can anyone compare the attention we have or haven't recieved with the amount of attention that Jedi get??? That's ludicrous! I don't even know how to address a statement like that without laughing
.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
QFE Dariane, for the most part (if agreeing with each other becomes common, the Ranger boards will become boring!).
Also, how can anyone compare the attention we have or haven't recieved with the amount of attention that Jedi get??? That's ludicrous! I don't even know how to address a statement like that without laughing
Kinshi wrote:
Again folks they key to getting desirable changes from SOE to our professions is to remeber that SOE is a business, and to get what we want we must address it in terms of why what we want is a good business decision for them.
So, tell me how you would convey this to them.
Dont think I dont want Squad Leader or Ranger to be revamped into the MMO class of my dreams like everyone else but given the sheer size and scope of what we want, its not likely to happen because its of little value to SOE to do those things.Squad Leader is no different.
We could sit here for months on months like we have been, thumping on the revamp drum, and all we have gotten so far from SOE is them telling us it farther out now. Thats right, all we have gotten for our idealism thus far is to have our revamps pushed even lower in priority by SOE.
And thats the way a business operates, the larger the project with the lower the Return on Investment means it goes lower in priority until someone figures out a way to make it happen in such a way to make it worth the effort. Right now, its simply NOT worth SOE's time and money and devs to do major revamps on two unpopular professions in the game. I am sorry to have to keep repeating this but I am compelled to do so in the face of what sometimes appears to be blind idealism.
I think we all understand that. Now, if we are not important enough to be look at seperately, what makes you think they want to take the time to look at us together? We will still be fewer in numbers than (almost) any other profession). Also, how come no one considers the vicious cycle we are in. We can't bet better skills (via a revamp) becuse we are too few in number, and we can't gain more numbers until we get better skills. How will that change if we ask to be merged? We are still in the same boat, but a lot of us will lose our playstyle.
Im an idealist guy too, dont get me wrong, but I am a realist too. I dont think this idea is the best in terms of both SLs & Rangers getting everything we want. But I do hope this makes both SL's & Rangers realize what the other profession has to offer. I belive I have offered up some very poignant examples of just how well SL & Ranger fit together.
OK, so you feel that SL and Ranger fits together, but what about those of us that don't? Many of us think that Ranger and Riflemen fit together extremely well (from RL examples); why not merge them?
Rangers, you would benefit from learning more about SL's, and SL's, take a hard look at Rangering an what we do, (and want to be). The big benefit here for both of us is that this idea would provide both professions with more type of play opportunities while letting us play the same way we do now. Its quite literally the best of both worlds.
How can we play the same way if we lose some skills? Don't think that a merge will be straight across; both professions will have to lose skills so as to not make them overpowered.
Only the true, hard core, persistentpessimists believe that merging 2 broken professions into one will yeild a single broken profession. I beilive down deep, those folks dont think that a revamp of their professions will work either. Fact is a revamp of either profession is still very likely to result in a screwed up profession, just like what we have now.
Lol, only the true, hard core, persistent optimists believe that merging 2 brokn professions into 1 will yield a single working profession! I believe down deep that we cannever be happy with any potential outcome for the future of Ranger. The devs have shown us that getting all we want (even if we were to dictate the terms of a merge) can't and won't ever happen.
At least with the merge idea, we both can gain a level of new abilities, and play opportunites,even if the resulting profession is not ideal. That alone is worth doing this. That and the fact this idea would not be difficult or expensive for SOE to implement.
Sorry, but talk of money does not apply here. You have no idea of what the costs of developing and coding and testing and implementing and bug fixing will be for SOE. The one thing I learned from my Corr days is that the devs hate to hear, "it's easier to do x than y."
I would rather our profession survive as a unified profession rather than continue to atrophy alone. Our numbers are not getting bigger, most people do not buy SWG thinkiing "OMG I get to be a Squad Leader or a Ranger". Its why people are flowing into the Bounty Hunter/Jedi arenas, and the pure combat professions. By ourselves we are only marginally useful to the bulk of the SWG population butwe have a chance here to be incredibly useful to the bulk of the population, a shot at making a unified profession a top tier profession to play, with all the benefits that go with it. Its a chance worth taking.
Rangers, take a SL out on a group hunt, see how their skills enhance your own. Watch their abilities help you drop creatures faster.
SLs seek out some Rangers, and watch how they help your group control aggro and make life easier by finding your targets faster. Watch how the Rangers make your group a ton of money via the sale of their harvested resources.
Honestly, Rangers & SLs need to seek each other out so they can witness first hand the synergy that exists between the 2 profs out in the field. Dont take my word for it, try it out. SLs have a Master Ranger put some camo on you and see how little aggro you get as you do your tasks/ Rangers watch how easy the SL makes it for you to focus on a single target in the middle of the herd.
Try it out and see first hand what I am talking about.
The bottom line is, if you want SL and Ranger, you CAN pick them both up. Merging the profession is not the answer. A merger will result in nothing more that parting us out to another professions (which is already happening). The Ranger profession can not remain intact in a merger.
Again I have to agree with Calc here. This forum as a group will never be happy with any implementation of Ranger because there is no "one" or single view of Ranger. Many here view Ranger as the ultimate Hunter or woodsman. Others of use view Ranger more along the lines of a Special Forces unit (i.e. along the lines of an Army Ranger). Ranger can not be both.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Kinshi wrote:
..........
Only the true, hard core, persistentpessimists believe that merging 2 broken professions into one will yeild a single broken profession. I beilive down deep, those folks dont think that a revamp of their professions will work either. Fact is a revamp of either profession is still very likely to result in a screwed up profession, just like what we have now.
(QFE) Lol, only the true, hard core, persistent optimists believe that merging 2 brokn professions into 1 will yield a single working profession! I believe down deep that we cannever be happy with any potential outcome for the future of Ranger. The devs have shown us that getting all we want (even if we were to dictate the terms of a merge) can't and won't ever happen.
......
The bottom line is, if you want SL and Ranger, you CAN pick them both up. Merging the profession is not the answer. A merger will result in nothing more that parting us out to another professions (which is already happening). The Ranger profession can not remain intact in a merger.