Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Focus Thread : Balancing Range limitations for Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman.
TheSillyOne wrote:
I like the idea in response #82. I have a 60m pistol that I CAN use for long range fighting (wouldn't do it though cause I can effectively use a rifle at that range and the 60m pistol sucks). Before I figured out that there is no reason to ever cary a pistol at all (even as a template set up specifically for pistols) I used to switch to the lower damage higher range pistol so that I could still operate at a longer range. It made sense to me that it should be that way.
Rifles are effective in open field content (sith attack village mission, clearing the OUTSIDE of a base, general hunting and xp groups). Other proffessions are entitled to be effective as well.
For example. In a base raid, melee and short ranged profs should be inside the base clearing the npc's,carbinesand long range should be sniping incoming defenders and laying down cover fire for allies to get in the base. Everyone has thier role to play. If you want to be effective at close range you should have to do it with a pistol or melee weapon.
Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 06-23-2005 07:21 PM
Reminder: Balancing.....
Man, I thought Jedi were the ultimate Nerf-Cheerleader Gank Squad
All I see on these posts is Nerf Rifles. Rifles do have their limitations, Rifles don't fire as fast as Pistols.The better specials between the two are better for Pistols as far as all around use. Rifleman have to go prone, use cover, have cool-down timers for specials, etc. Pistols can use specials no matter what posture, etc.
Listen, I'm also a master commando, so believe me, I gripe a lot because my profession is busted and broke beyond belief. But for all my complaining, I don't call for Nerfs for anyone. I call to improve my profession, not weaken others. Have Rifle-envy? Then get Rifleman in you Template. Don't cry to weaken others.
Now, attack this post.....I'm going to bed now and when I check this post later, I fully expect to see it attacked, Big-Time.
Do it well, Pie for everyone!!!!
Message Edited by MrAndrson on 06-23-2005 11:38 PM
Message Edited by MrAndrson on 06-23-2005 11:39 PM
Message Edited by MrAndrson on 06-23-2005 11:41 PM
Trebonious wrote:
I'm a Carbineer! /wave
A friend just alerted me to this thread. I've seen the number 55m thrown around a bit here as the max range for carbines - this is not true. The maximum range for the vast majority of our weapons is 50m. I also saw someone suggest above that Carbineer should get specials that stick states. While this was our role pre-CU, we no longer have anything resembling that. Carbineer post-CU is all about posture/speed control (aka KDs and snares) and damage. Our correspondent has told us time and time again not to think of Carbines in pre-CU terms, so we might as well forget about Carbineers as appliers of states. Pistoleers clearly have that role now, such as it is.
The subject matter at hand is tricky. Obviously it's a really sensitive issue. But it also is mainly an issue between pistoleers and riflemen. By the very definition of the discussion (range limitations), we fall squarely in the middle and are torn between the two sides. That might be why you don't see so many carbineers in this thread. I'm still mulling over the possibilities in my mind, but so far I like the idea of an accuracy penalty outside of "ideal" ranges, as well as the specials-specific range limitations. I don't think anybody should be forced to equip a pistol to fight at close range, or a rifle to fight at long range. The trick is balancing those accuracy penalties enough that they matter and can't be wholly overcome by foods and other enhancements.
Well I'm glad at least one carbineer is out there listening in, even if the discussion kind of covers the extremes of range I think the views of pistoleers or riflemen taken in isolation are just not going to lead to a decent solution. There's way too much shouting about what's unfair on one professions forum and changes being pushed through without decent consultation between the affected parties. (Which is why it's good to see the rifleman Corr over here.) Hopefully we can avoid that in this case if we give the subject a decent kick around.
Good point about food and enhancers btw.
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-24-2005 03:57 AM
TheSillyOne wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
TheSillyOne wrote:
I like the idea in response #82. I have a 60m pistol that I CAN use for long range fighting (wouldn't do it though cause I can effectively use a rifle at that range and the 60m pistol sucks). Before I figured out that there is no reason to ever cary a pistol at all (even as a template set up specifically for pistols) I used to switch to the lower damage higher range pistol so that I could still operate at a longer range. It made sense to me that it should be that way.
Rifles are effective in open field content (sith attack village mission, clearing the OUTSIDE of a base, general hunting and xp groups). Other proffessions are entitled to be effective as well.
For example. In a base raid, melee and short ranged profs should be inside the base clearing the npc's,carbinesand long range should be sniping incoming defenders and laying down cover fire for allies to get in the base. Everyone has thier role to play. If you want to be effective at close range you should have to do it with a pistol or melee weapon.
Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 06-23-2005 07:21 PM
And in the DWB? the geo cave? the corvette? the warren? kashyyyk?
Doriflemannot belong in there?
Yes they do, down the hall about 20m or so. In all of those places I shoot with a pistol from 20m. Is there some reason you can't do the same with a rifle?
Sorry Silly, I've got to agree with Ack here, 20m in any dungeon is good going even with a well organised group. Min ranges will just hurt riflemen too much in these situations; we'd be "fixing" PvP, a relatively minor aspect of the game, while making the rest of the game a lot less fun to play. Let's try to bear this in mind before we ask for major changes, we need to address the apparant PvP dominance of rifles and Jedi rather than a more wide ranging gameplay issue.
Which brings me onto another thought, is there a way to implement PvP only rules for rifles, rather than make a fundamental change that will unfairly hamstring riflemen in PvE? See it strikes me that a lot of the IG issues are PvP related, and this seems to stem from trying to make rules that will cover both PvP and PvE situations? Maybe it's just too much to expect and one size cannot be made to fit all?
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-24-2005 03:54 AM
Giftmacher wrote:
Sorry Silly, I've got to agree with Ack here, 20m in any dungeon is good going even with a well organised group. Min ranges will just hurt riflemen too much in these situations; we'd be "fixing" PvP, a relatively minor aspect of the game, while making the rest of the game a lot less fun to play. Let's try to bear this in mind before we ask for major changes, we need to address the apparant PvP dominance of rifles and Jedi rather than a more wide ranging gameplay issue.
Which brings me onto another thought, is there a way to implement PvP only rules for rifles, rather than make a fundamental change that will unfairly hamstring riflemen in PvE? See it strikes me that a lot of the IG issues are PvP related, and this seems to stem from trying to make rules that will cover both PvP and PvE situations? Maybe it's just too much to expect and one size cannot be made to fit all?
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-24-2005 03:54 AM
I dont think that would address my issue. Which is, as a Pistoleer I'm better off using a rifle. More damage, similar SAC and speed and I can fire it at any range.
Take away the ALR and I have the LD-1, take that away and I'll get the next best rifle and still be more effective than if I had a pistol armed.
I heard rumours of schematic changes on TC to ranged weapons so I will have to talk to Mor-Dan about it.
For those who weren't paying attention during the CU beta all weapons were originally tied to skills. The problem arose that if you were for example a pistoleer/carbineer and wanted to change to pistoleer/rifleman since you'd have no rifle skills you wouldn't be able to use anything more advanced than a CDEF.
Not much of an issue you might think, that's how it was pre-CU. But with the addition of the level system it would also mean that even after you had dropped your carbine skills you would still be CL54. So you'd end with two options for trying to level rifles, either accept that you won't do any damage to CL54 mobs and level up 1xp at a time killing over 200,000 kreetles for your xp for novice rifleman or try taking out mobs CL54+ with a CDEF rifle.
To counter this the devs introduced a quick fix that meant anyone could use certain weapons from each profession to ensure that it would be possible for everyone to swap professions if they wanted to.
This whole problem is a result of that poorly thought out decision
DomMantell wrote:
Its sad to see that this has all occured because of the inane level system that was forced upon us in the CU.
For those who weren't paying attention during the CU beta all weapons were originally tied to skills. The problem arose that if you were for example a pistoleer/carbineer and wanted to change to pistoleer/rifleman since you'd have no rifle skills you wouldn't be able to use anything more advanced than a CDEF.
Not much of an issue you might think, that's how it was pre-CU. But with the addition of the level system it would also mean that even after you had dropped your carbine skills you would still be CL54. So you'd end with two options for trying to level rifles, either accept that you won't do any damage to CL54 mobs and level up 1xp at a time killing over 200,000 kreetles for your xp for novice rifleman or try taking out mobs CL54+ with a CDEF rifle.
To counter this the devs introduced a quick fix that meant anyone could use certain weapons from each profession to ensure that it would be possible for everyone to swap professions if they wanted to.
This whole problem is a result of that poorly thought out decision
Yup, we are currently in a situation that has evolved from certain issues during CU implementation.
I see this as an opportunity though, the Devs are aware that changes need to be made, but it seems to me they can't decide what.
Internally during the CU they had the same debate as us and decided to remove min ranges but left the caps on Pistols and Carbs.
So there is some unfinished business on the model for ranged professions.
Hence why I keep coming back to the players and asking what they want, if we can come up with a list of solutions that are acceptable to us then surely thats better than having something implemented that we would not be happy with, the case in point being minimumranges.
I'll collate the ideas presented in this thread and edit the original post for reviewthen take them to the corr forum.
It will give the Devs an idea of what changes we the players would find acceptable and if anything I hope it would influence any current plans.#
Keep the ideas coming!
BadgerSmaker wrote:
Giftmacher wrote:
Sorry Silly, I've got to agree with Ack here, 20m in any dungeon is good going even with a well organised group. Min ranges will just hurt riflemen too much in these situations; we'd be "fixing" PvP, a relatively minor aspect of the game, while making the rest of the game a lot less fun to play. Let's try to bear this in mind before we ask for major changes, we need to address the apparant PvP dominance of rifles and Jedi rather than a more wide ranging gameplay issue.
Which brings me onto another thought, is there a way to implement PvP only rules for rifles, rather than make a fundamental change that will unfairly hamstring riflemen in PvE? See it strikes me that a lot of the IG issues are PvP related, and this seems to stem from trying to make rules that will cover both PvP and PvE situations? Maybe it's just too much to expect and one size cannot be made to fit all?
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-24-2005 03:54 AM
I dont think that would address my issue. Which is, as a Pistoleer I'm better off using a rifle. More damage, similar SAC and speed and I can fire it at any range.
Take away the ALR and I have the LD-1, take that away and I'll get the next best rifle and still be more effective than if I had a pistol armed.
I heard rumours of schematic changes on TC to ranged weapons so I will have to talk to Mor-Dan about it.
Yes however, even though it relates to the problem at hand isn't it really a seperate pistol related issue? (I seem to recall a dev comment about PvP being dominated by just two profs somewhere hense the sabre rattling over this.)
Anyway regarding your point, you remember that our last Correspondent said he felt we didn't damage enough with pistols, well I'm inclined to agree.Havingfought alongside riflemen in PvE many times I've noticed they do put out more damage than us without really running out of action appreciably faster than we do, however I don't feel they are massively over powered, they do go down quicky if caught by a tough mob (krayts etc.) and I don't think there's anything they can solo that I as a pistoleer can't (even if it does take me longer and a few wounds to do it). So surely it's us needs to be changed and not them; we need to be faster and have less SAC from our preffered weapons rather than tone down someone elses.
I see pistol inferiority as a problem at our end of the equation rather than at the rifleman one; I'd rather we asked to better ourselves than askto hindersomeone else. I don't think it's the solution to the PvP problem, but I do think it addresses the case for actually useing pistols because they are useful. /shrug.
Gift.
Yeah, I'm really glad we've had some great feedback so far. 
So what are the core issues here?
1) Not enough differences between Pistols, Carbines and Rifles to make them unique.
So maybe some changes to schematic caps?
Speed Caps.
Am I correct in thinking that all ranged weapons cap at 1.73 speed? I'll have to check on that.
SAC caps:
Pistols: 65
Carbines: 73
Rifles: 82
Damage caps (approx):
Pistols: 960
Carbs : 1060
Rifles : 1180
So maybe some tweaking across the board here.
2) Legacy max range caps.
As detailed above.
What else?
Some things I would consider:
- Increased pistol speed, accuracy, defense so wielding a pistol over a rifle is desired.
- Increase movement burden on rifles and carbines, keep burden of pistols.
- Shorten range of rifles, add range into sniper and conceal shot specials.
- Slow down rifle speeds and raise SAC on the weapon itself by significant amounts. Right now rifles fire as fast and cheap as pistols and I don't think there is much room to improve pistols.
- Add modifiers for professions to reduce SAC as they do speed. This should not bring rifles back down to where they are now, but will make riflemen better with rifles than non-riflemen.
- Increase damage and actionon sniper shot and conceal shot. Riflemanwill be able to front load damage or finish off a target. This provides a tactic that conserves action and keeps the rifleman out of danger and defines a role.
Melvic wrote:Some things I would consider:
- Increased pistol speed, accuracy, defense so wielding a pistol over a rifle is desired.
- Increase movement burden on rifles and carbines, keep burden of pistols.
- Shorten range of rifles, add range into sniper and conceal shot specials.
- Slow down rifle speeds and raise SAC on the weapon itself by significant amounts. Right now rifles fire as fast and cheap as pistols and I don't think there is much room to improve pistols.
- Add modifiers for professions to reduce SAC as they do speed. This should not bring rifles back down to where they are now, but will make riflemen better with rifles than non-riflemen.
- Increase damage and action on sniper shot and conceal shot. Rifleman will be able to front load damage or finish off a target. This provides a tactic that conserves action and keeps the rifleman out of danger and defines a role.
I'd agree with most of these.
Rifles are slower than pistols however, there's a 0.75 second difference between the speed of my T21 and my DL44 XT so my best rifle is essentially 35% slower than my best pistol (50% slower if I use a damage powerup on the rifle).
I'd have no problem with a maximum range on rifles of 40-50m with a range on conceal & sniper shot of 65m. Its the minimum range that I have issues with.
Whilst it is possible to reduce SAC costs significantly on pistols, to a much lower level than rifles, I believe that unless you craft the weapons and components specifically to reduce the SAC costs rifles, carbines and pistols all come out with over 100 SAC (almost the "default" SAC cost) with pistols weighing in about 104 SAC and rifles around 120 SAC. It should be possible to change the pistol and carbine schematics to reduce the defaults to say 85 and 95 SAC respectively.
Lowering the default pistol and carbine speeds a small amount would offset the reduced action costs so specials wouldn't become spammable with a pistol or carbine, but the damage output from both would improve significantly.
This doesn't fix the issue of one of the game's most powerful weapons (the ALR) being available to anyone with no rifle skills.
To fix this, I'd change all weapons back to skill based certifications. To avoid the whole levelling problem that I mentioned earlier I'd take one CL40 weapon from each class and make these weapons available to anyone to use, these weapons should not be available for use in PvP, they would be for levelling a new profession in PvE and nothing more.
Melvic wrote:
Some things I would consider:
- Increased pistol speed, accuracy, defense so wielding a pistol over a rifle is desired.
Hmmm maybe moving some pistoleer generic speed and accuracy to specific speed and accuracy?
- Increase movement burden on rifles and carbines, keep burden of pistols.
I would advocate decreaseing movement penalty on pistol over increasing our rifle one. Right now in game every mob is faster then us!
- Shorten range of rifles, add range into sniper and conceal shot specials.
Min range + 128m range still sucks
- Slow down rifle speeds and raise SAC on the weapon itself by significant amounts. Right now rifles fire as fast and cheap as pistols and I don't think there is much room to improve pistols.
They do not fire as fast as pistols unless they have invested heavily into other professions for speed and have tapes. The Sac cost on specials while 20 more then pistols means that a rifleman will run dry using our heavy hitters in around 11 secs (best sac weapon)
- Add modifiers for professions to reduce SAC as they do speed. This should not bring rifles back down to where they are now, but will make riflemen better with rifles than non-riflemen.
I prefer heavy SAC costs - Means we have to think tactically
- Increase damage and actionon sniper shot and conceal shot. Riflemanwill be able to front load damage or finish off a target. This provides a tactic that conserves action and keeps the rifleman out of danger and defines a role.
The problem with this (and the reason we have been told it will not happen) is that the devs do not like 1 shot kills. If you increase our front load more a 1 shot kill is possible.
Great suggestions, especially:
Melvic wrote:
Add modifiers for professions to reduce SAC as they do speed. This should not bring rifles back down to where they are now, but will make riflemen better with rifles than non-riflemen.
I was thinking along the lines of slowing down base speed on rifles and carbs and increasing minimum SAC on them as well, then give them extended damage caps to distance them further from pistols.
Also, if we changed the General Ranged Accuracy that pistoleers get into Pistol Accuracy then we wouldn't be viable with a rifle anymore.