Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Discussion Thread: Dual Wielding Pistols
LordMaxx wrote :
Rockhurst wrote:
LordMaxx wrote:
...Do you guys feel that Accuracy should be greatly affected?
Another way is limiting the range...since you are dual wielding you may not be effective at all greater than say 20 meters...should one or both of these be a hindrance.
The range limitation would appeal to the devs in the fact that they want dual wielding to be a tactical decsion and not the thing you always do like spamming healthshot2 is now adays
I like dual wielding as a tactical decision. It should be used when you get up close and want to dish out big damage. Originally, I said that tactical decision should be driven by huge hits to accuracy outside of close range (20 meters or whatever distance we choose). However, if we limited dual wielding to only within a given range that would essentially have the same effect, so that works for me. If we are limited in the range we should do it, I would say any hit to accuracy would have to be small. After all, we should be most accurate at point blank range so I don't see why we need a bit hit to accuracy. Plus, if we took an accuracy hit too large, we might do less DPS dual wielding up close than we would with one pistol at full accuracy.
In summary: Limited range; no to little accuracy hit.
Sharp, fast and accurate when fairly close; Mad, bad and painfulwhen very close
well there are 2 problems with that....
1.) -PVE- ever fought a high end ranged NPC like a Death Watch? they kite and switch through different weapons while fight. if we are capped with only specials while dual wielding in a certain range of 20m we are maybe forced to go melee with him what would be our end cause of less melee defense. (if we get much more ranged defense its ok to take em out without dual wield)
2.) -PVP- yes our state defense is good enough to not go dizzy/kd that easy but our melee defense sux again. we also have no mitigations to compete with melee profs. if we really are in the situation like rockhurst's rat is -dual wield damage multiplicator has to be very high to win the fight very fast or we are dead fast. also ap2 is needed cause pistols dont do enough damage against armoured enemys.(NPC - medium armor : a max dam 300 pistol makes about200-300 dam per healthshot2 / heavy armor : 50-100 damage per hit) thats a joke against the damage output of rifleman or swordman who do about1000 - 3000of damage per hit/sec to medium or heavy armoured enemys.
so if there would be a hard cap for the range of using dual wielding we need much more ranged defense/ap2 and the damage multiplicator should be worth it.
/edit: i would like to see the pistoleer as the best ranged tank in the game with a decent damage output. atinfight(20m) distance we should have the highest damage output of all ranged profs even higher than rifleman because we have to fight at a dangerous distance to our oponents and cant hide and snipe. so if a melee fighterfinally reach us we should have a 50/50 chance to kill them fast before we go dizzy kd.
greets shakan 
Message Edited by shakaan on 10-26-2004 05:45 PM
Message Edited by shakaan on 10-27-2004 02:01 AM
LordMaxx wrote:
say there was to be a hard cap...what would be a fair estimate? Ideal range of the weapon? or something simple like 30m or 25m....outside lunge2 range...but remember we are close ranged specialists (or will be) so this will be designed as our infighting technique...this is what will hopefully give us an edge over melee'ers or at least make us comparable to them...for that there must be a justification...25m or 30m which sounds more reasonable? I believe ideal range on many of our weapons are within 20m...
Every meter over melee range is a meter that the melee guy needs to cross in a pistoleers cone of blasterbolts.
Some of it depends on what defenses we would or would not be getting and how powerful melee attacks will be in comparison with Pistoleers. I don't think it should be the ideal range of a weapon.That's the ideal range for accurately firing one pistol...not two of them. However, if the ideal range does factor in somehow, it would give pistoleers more of a reason to equip scopes at the expense of higher HAM costs (though HAM will be changing). I think this question is where the "balance" comes into play. If we're going to be able to do twice the damage with dual wielding, we should be taking more of ariskof being damaged. So, in that sense, either something static like 20-25m or just outside lunge2. Depending on how our defenses are balanced, we might want to talk about defensive bonuses while dual wielding at some point.
LordMaxx wrote:
say there was to be a hard cap...what would be a fair estimate? Ideal range of the weapon? or something simple like 30m or 25m....outside lunge2 range...but remember we are close ranged specialists (or will be) so this will be designed as our infighting technique...
Dual wielding would be what gives that shot against melee types...there has to be a balance, and if the only bad thing we say we want is worst accuracy then dual wielding will not be very powerful at all.
Dual Wielding would almost be our melee equivalent where we actually get in close and dish out the damage. Surely some of you understand why the power of the commando flamethrower is limited to close range.
ah well please discuss here
. result = end of macro pvping (probably)Exactly. With option B we severely risk dual wielding being just a novelty instead of the tacticalhigh damage, melee counter it could be.I almost wonder how many of the B voters are reading and understandingthe balancing reasons for making it a limited range. The more I've thought about this, the more issues I think of when not limiting the range of this. What if dual wielding could be a semi-passive skill once earned?A player withtwo pistols equipped outside the "ideal" range only fires one of the two at as normal.In time, the devs could even addanimations for the toon shooting with the right hand or the left hand based on moving direction. Whenthe player decides to move in close, he/shegives the/dualwield command. Then, once the player moves within the ideal dual wield range, the toon raises the other pistol and begins firing with both and any dual wield specials are available. Just a thought...
LordMaxx wrote:
Seems there is general dislike for a ranged cap for dual wielding...I thought it to be a logical coutnerbalance to the power inherant in the dual wielding...much like my flamethrower comparison.
If all your talking about is decreased accuracy (something that can be greatly increased by food or other profession additions) then we face Dual Wielding being underpowered and something that might just be a novelty...with that said what are some other limitations/restrictions that could counterbalance the mechanic so that dual wielding will be powerful enough to warrant using it?
Cmon all you B voters speak up
It's like Maxx said. If the devs are going to give us dual wielding, they'll do it to fill some "void" we have and better balance our profession. Dual wielding must be a TACTICAL choice...not just a cool visual feature. That's why there's all of the talk about balance. Our role as pistoleers will not be to dish out high damage. It will be to fight up close applying status affects with lots of speed. That leaves a big gap for us pistoleers...what do we do when we need to apply big damage? The answer: Dual Wield. When we need to dish out that big damage, we move in a little closer to melee range (taking the risk of being hit) and equip a second pistol. If we could use two pistols from any range, there would be no tactical reason for using one. The idea isn't that we'd stand toe to toe with a melee profession or commando and use dual wielding...it would be a risk we take when the situation calls for it. Also, keep in mind that TH has said melee 'gods' will be a thing of the past post revamp and ranged fighting is where the power will be...our role post revamp are up close fighters...our defenses should reflect that.
LassictheChosen wrote:
Everyone keeps talking about game balance issue with regards to the duel wield. If we put the 30m cap on dual wield, you are still putting us in the melee person's range. Let's face it. The only way to stay our of that 20m range is to be in open spaces, and how often are you in open spaces when pvping? Besides the obvious point of the ridiculousness of a 20m(reads 66 feet) lunge by anyone using melee skills, we just don't have the defenses to stand toe-to-toe when they do eventually close on us. Our only hope is to pummel them fast enough before they get there.