Pistoleer Archive

So Elite Ranged specials would be capped at 35m max for pistols, 10m min and 55m max for carbs and 20m min for rifleman?

Then you can use marksman specials to go over the restrictions or dabble in other professions to get specials that hit all ranges.

Wouldn't that make a Rifleman/Pistoleer overly powerful being able to use pistol specials with a rifle at 0 range?

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BadgerSmaker wrote:

So Elite Ranged specials would be capped at 35m max for pistols, 10m min and 55m max for carbs and 20m min for rifleman?

Yes, I do like this more, it seems less heavy handed although I don't feel it should apply to all specials, snares for example I can see situations where these will be valuable in digging yourself out of trouble or some of the mid strength pure damage specials (where actual weapon range/accuracy should come into play instead). Plus I'd actually argue for stopping shot to be 30m and the improved version 35m so if people want to dabble, close in and use that special with a rifle on us then they'd come well into our optimum range and well out of a rifles optimum range, likely get rooted themselves in the process before they could get out again (see below). Needless to say I feel it should help differentiate between dabblers and masters.

Then you can use marksman specials to go over the restrictions or dabble in other professions to get specials that hit all ranges.

True, however I do think accuracy penalties should apply which would mean if you are going to use high-powered weapons to do this then you will have a real risk of failure. So Rifles at <35m won't hit that often, ditto for using rifle specials with a pistol at 60m (I'm proposing no max range cap here). I noticed a post on the rifleman forum where Ack suggests 50-75% accuracy penalties for using weapons outside their ideal range and have to admit I like the idea.

That way if I do get rooted by a rifleman and don't manage to get a root off myself (unlikely at 30m) and he moves out of my pistol's idealrange I get a few more options. E.g. I can choose to go prone while hanging on to my pistol so the accuracy bonuscan then go some way tomitigating my accuracy disadvantage, plus I stack prone defense on top of my normal pistol defense. Or I canswitch to a rifle, sacrifice some defense (again could goprone to help mitigate) but gain accuracy.In neither situation am I utterly unable to retaliate, but I'm given the choice of sticking with my pistol if I think it will be viable, and any ranged template even without root will have the option to return fire without sacrificing defense.

A few points to note on this, Riflemen wanting to root will close to a range where they should switch to a carb or pistol to have a hope of applying that special, doing so will take precious time in itself, still reduce accuracy somewhat, defense and risk getting stuck there, hopefully further balancing the situation.

Dabblers should suffer by not having access to the most powerful master box weapons in this situation (a separate issue that needs addressing), and be at a distinct disadvantage if more advanced master specials have better ranges (as well as power, duration etc.)

The ability to use a stim while prone would likely be essential, posture changes to heal to see you through the root are likely to get you killed

Wouldn't that make a Rifleman/Pistoleer overly powerful being able to use pistol specials with a rifle at 0 range?

Ah sorryI think I didn't make myself clear, I ment these changes should include more punative versions of the weapon specific accuracy penalties, otherwise that's exactly what you'll get. The problem I see here is that Carbineers might actually benefit most from these changes as they'll have a midange window that will make them very good against rifles and pistols if they hit it right. Any thoughts on that?

Gift.

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Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-23-2005 04:17 AM

OK, so increase accuracy penalties greatly when outside your weapons ideal range, cap range on some elite specials and remove all caps on range?

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BadgerSmaker wrote:

OK, so increase accuracy penalties greatly when outside your weapons ideal range, cap range on some elite specials and remove all caps on range?

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Yup that's what I would like to see because it introduces differences at the grass roots while maintaining flexability. The question is will it work and does it make sense? Ok that's two questions... meh.

Gift.

Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-23-2005 05:19 AM

Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-23-2005 05:22 AM

Badger, thank goodness you have a cool head about all this cause this topic is def a fragile one in all the forums. /Hats off for doing a great job much like Tanks!!

Back to buisness, the outcome of a range limitation put on carbines and rifles will result in only one thing .. all will simply become pistoleers. There will be no more riflemen or carbineers. Everybody knows that ALL combat be it pve or pvp ends up in the -35m zone at some time or another. All base raids take place at darn near point blank - death watch bunker (or any dugeon) are at point blank range.

The focus should be on not limiting range but giving each ranged prof a huge perk for using their weapon inside it's designed "kill zone".

Pistoleer - No movement encumbrance, much more speed, much higher defenses

Carbineer - More AOE specials with high chance state sticking

Rifleman - Lower defenses, slower speed

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Karbal wrote:

The focus should be on not limiting range but giving each ranged prof a huge perk for using their weapon inside it's designed "kill zone".

Pistoleer - No movement encumbrance, much more speed, much higher defenses

Carbineer - More AOE specials with high chance state sticking

Rifleman - Lower defenses, slower speed

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The perks for Pistoleer and Carbineer using their weapons in their ideal ranges sound pretty cool though I'm not sure that I'd agree with lower defences and slower speeds for riflemen being a "perk"

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Giftmacher wrote:

Not sure about removing pistol encumb entirely either, remember melee profs will need to catch up with us somehow.

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Not sure that would be too much of an issue since pistol's ideal killing zone would probably be 10-20m which isn't much outside PvP melee range, except for the whole root thing...

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DomMantell wrote:

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Karbal wrote:

The focus should be on not limiting range but giving each ranged prof a huge perk for using their weapon inside it's designed "kill zone".

Pistoleer - No movement encumbrance, much more speed, much higher defenses

Carbineer - More AOE specials with high chance state sticking

Rifleman - Lower defenses, slower speed

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The perks for Pistoleer and Carbineer using their weapons in their ideal ranges sound pretty cool though I'm not sure that I'd agree with lower defences and slower speeds for riflemen being a "perk"

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How.. does that address the imbalance in ranges?

Ack, we dont want anyone nerfed, this isn't what this is about. Balance doesn't have to mean nerf. What this thread is for is so we can come up with ideas and get players opinions on the situation we are in.

• Increase range penalties significantly when using your weapon outside of its ideal range and remove all range limits on weapons.


• Put range limits on elite ranged professions specials and remove all range limits on weapons.


• Alter ranges on all ranged weapons to give elite ranged professions the ability to cover all ranges, but with lower CL guns, higher CL guns obey the model*.


• 
  
  Minimum range caps on Rifles.

Moving ALR's to Master only cert is the complete opposite of what we need. Doing that would merely remove any chance of nonRifleman to do any damage above 35m........ The imbalance is not cuased by non-Rifleman using an ALR, isnt rifleman having an "unfair" advantage at a range that is supposed to the pistoleers speciality.

Personally I believe the only sensible and viable answer is third of Badger's summary points. It addresses the imbalance without crippling players that are still trying to grind skill boxes towards MRM.

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Short_Timer wrote:

The imbalance is not cuased by non-Rifleman using an ALR

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Let's face it. The imbalance here IS caused by non-riflemen using an ALR.

Most of the grief here has been caused by BH vs Jedi bounties and general melee vs ranged PvP. We have BH/pistoleers and BH/smugglers using the ALR to get a root on their marks from 64m (up to 80m with cybernetics) using the added range of the ALR to stay outside of melee range.

Does anyone have a problem with the 64m ALR range in PvE? Or does it all come from PvP encounters where being able to root a melee opponent from 64m causes a real advantage?

Whilst balance in PvP is hugely important, since 75% of the game's population doesn't involve itself in PvP no changes to core combat should be made *just* to accomodate problems arrising from PvP.

Errrrrr, so you maintain that its the ALR and people using it to root at 64m thats the problem?

Ok,how about I just rootmy targetwithany of the other 64m rifles that doesnthave a skill box cert.Whats the difference? The ALR has higher damage thats all, which is why its favoured. Ok, so you take away peoples ability to use the ALR so they go and get a goraxed Berserker at 100 less damage, you havent solved the problem at all.

So it comes down to range again. That is the issue and that is the problem that needs addressing. Why should we be able to tank and do horrendous damage at 0m? Its not our job and not what we should be doing. Ok, u want to tank, well that fine but you aint gonna do it with a rifle, at least not one so powerful.

I am more and more convinced that a "sliding scale" of min range caps linked to weapon CL cert is the only viable solution. I'm just really disappointed that it takes a group of pistoleers to point it out to us.