Pistoleer Archive
Thread: How Speed Works In The Game: The #1 Issue Facing Pistoleers
Tilen
Scylla
How about you caclulate the damage on my 80-460 Launcher pistol.
I can hit in PvP for just under 1k with stopping shot, and have a 2 second delay as Master pistoleer.
I will hit you dam hard and really fast while moving around the whole time. I have seen some unsliced fwg5's that are 80-270 1.0 speed. Get a good base damg pistol, slice it and get some powerups, then see which classes get the best DPS.
Tilen, what don't you understand? I'd be happy to help walk you through the calculations.
Also, which Master Weaponsmith are you using, since we're on the same server? I think I used weapons that were all by the same weaponsmith myself. Be sure to use non-sliced, non-powered up, non Krayt-enhanced weapons.
Phuobar wrote:Not what I meant. Average DPS is calculated as (Ave Weapon Damage) * (Special Modifier) / (Modified speed).
It can also be written as (Ave Weapon Damage/Weapon Speed) * (Special Modifier) * (1/(1-speed skill))
Let's look at the first term, which is weapon only. Using Philosopher1976 number, T21 rifle is damage 171-462 weapon speed 8.8, armor piercing 3. FWG5 is 40-168 2.2s AP 0.
The ave DPS for T21 is ((171+462)/2/8.8s)*(1.25^3) = 70.25. The ave DPS for FWG5 is ((40+168)/2/2.2)*(1.25^0)=47.27. So from a weapon only perspective, the T21 trump the pistol in that does 50% more damage than the pistol. For a "balanced" weapon, they should be about the same. Rifle does more damage, but take longer. Pistol does less damage, but faster. Regardless, over time, they both should be doing the same damage per time periold if they are to be considered balanced.
The highest special modifier is the same for both, so we can ignore that.
A master rifleman speed is 95 whereas as a master pistoleer (with master marksman) pistol speed is 79. At speed 95, the damage multiplier due to speed skill is 1/(1-0.95)=20x. The damage multiplier due to speed skill for pistol is 1/(1-0.79)=4.76x. In other word, in addition to the rifle doing more damage, the speed skill modifier will let the rifleman do 4 times more damage. Combining these 2 means the rifleman does 7x more damage over time than a pistoleer.
This is on autofire, so no HAM cost.
And it doesn't take in account the net speed cap of 1.0 sec which the pistoleer will hit but the rifleman won't.
There're a few problems with your calculations.
That there is a prenerf T21, way more powerful than the post nerf. The average T21 is actually 121-324 at 7.3 seconds. Check the rifleman forum, these are the numbers posted there. So the dps is actually (121+324)/2/7.3*1.25^3 or 59.5 dps according to your calculation.
Master rifleman is not 95 speed. It's +90 speed. Master Rifleman + Master Marksman is +95. Believe it or not, that's actually a lot of skill pts. We'd have to compare them with pistolteer and bounty hunter hybrids who're usually more BH than pistolteer anyway.
So Given the Master rifleman DPS is 59.5 w/+90 speed and Master Pistolteer is 47.27 w/+79 speed. Well hmm.. your calculations are off again because you have to take speed caps into consideration. Both pistolteer and rifleman are capped at 1s on autofire.
So pistolteer's real DPS is (40+168)/2 or 104 DPS
A rifleman's real DPS is (121+324)/2*1.25^3 or 434 DPS
It's actually 4x the damage not 7x. And in reality, no one autofires, everyone uses specials.
Rifleman's mind always drains, Pistolteers always heal their health. So tell me, and i've asked this before but no pistolteer has answered, if the devs offered you very same DPS of a riflemen (that you compare to all the time) and in exchange you must take 129 mind damage per shot, would you take it?
When looking at the formula I see
(WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
I know Im missing something but it seems to me the first two are exactly the same.
Can you just work through the Rifleman with T21 from dps with AR to dps with AR and speed. The rest I will grind out when I get home from work.
Tilen
Scylla
Okay, you said you want a rifleman example. Here's an example using the Laser Rifle that my alt rifleman character is using on Kauri ... I love this gun. 
It's sliced, but not powered up:
Laser Rifle 54-527 5.4 AR2
So first you can calculate the base DPS, which is easy.
Step One: 54 + 527 = 581
Step Two: 581 / 2 = 290.5
Step Two: 290.5 / 5.4 = 53.8
Now if you are attacking an unarmed foe, you get a bonus because it is an AR2. You get the base DPS multipled by 1.25 for each AR, CONSECUTIVELY. That's what makes it so amazing ... it's like compound interest. I got this right from the Dev post at the top of the thread:
Step One: 290.5 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 453.91
Step Two: 453.91 / 5.4 = 84.06
That's the DPS with the AR factored in.
Now let's use the speed equation. Let's say you are a Master Rifleman (+90 rifle speed) shooting a normal attack (no specials). Here's the equation:
(WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
And if result < 1.0s , result = 1.0s
Let's plug in the numbers:
(5.4 * 2.4) - ((5.4 * 2.4) (90/100))
This reduces to:
12.96 - 11.66 = 1.3 seconds
So now let's figure out the true DPS:
453.91 / 1.3 = 349.16
Okay so let's work backward and figure out how good of an FWG5 a Master Pistoleer would have to use in order to equal this DPS.
If the FWG5 has 2.2 speed, then the Master Pistoleer (+74 speed) will fire it at the rate of once per 1.3728 seconds. Since the FWG5 is AR0, the Master Pistoleer would need a gun that averaged 479.33 damage per shot without a special, like a 379-579 2.2 FWG5 for example. So the Laser Rifle has a far superior damage output.
Two Quick Responses:
First to Cepha:
You are right that with the stats you posted, the rifle is only 400% more powerful than the pistol. That's still a whole lot. Thanks for the data ... I just used my friend's T21, which is what I could get my hands on at 3 AM and was from the same Weaponsmith.
In the original post, Icalculated DPS separately for both Master Rifleman and for Master Rifleman + Master Marksman. I compared both of those templates with Master Pistoleer as well as Master Pistoleer + BH Pistol (way more skill points than the Rifleman/Marksman combo). So I took into account all that stuff.
I would definitely take the same DPS of a rifleman as long as I could hit _mind_ damage like you guys. Give me mindshot2 and that DPS and I would pwn. Which, of course, is what the two best PvPers on my server (both Master Rifleman) do already. Just sneak up, mindshot2, and move out of range.
To Tilen:
Great, I'm familiar with both Ardath and Meridian. Now that I know who you are getting the weapons from, I can check if the numbers seem off. The best thing is to go to their vendor and get the numbers off the same batch of weapons so you don't repeat the mistake I made initially -- getting older guns means that the numbers can be off.
2.4 is the modifier for a normal (not special) attack. I got it from the Pistoleer FAQ ... we've calculated the modifiers for a number of different specials.
I used this because if you introduce specials into the mix, there's a lot more opportunity for griping. ("I don't use headshot3, I only use headshot2!" or "FanShot hits random HAM, it doesn't compare!" or whatever.) I calculated a few of the numbers out with specials, though, and all that does is exaggerate the numbers so the DPS differences are even greater.
Tilen
It is constant. That's why I like it ... this way the comparison is just about weapons/speed and not legshot versus headshot or whatever.
Of course it just puts me behind on my work and that means I have to stay late at night, which kind of sucks. When I wrote this initial post I ended up staying up until 5 or 6AM at work because it took me so long to make all the calculations and write the post that I couldn't get my work done earlier. LOL
http://home.webuniverse.net/macross/fwg.jpg
It's made with a +100 kryat tissue with a 30% damage slice. You only need 1 Tissue for an FWG5 too! Tack on a 32% power up on that baby and it becomes 506 max damage.