Pistoleer Archive

This is a good post and it goes a long way to illustrating the speed problem but it doesnt take into account a lot of other multipliers like specials, powerups, slices etc.. which just make the speed issue REALLY unbearable for Pistoleers, every multiplier added we get further and further behind. I know you were trying to keep everything constant but if you added all those multipliers like most people do in the game you would see how drastic the situation is even compared to the results you have obtained.

Gunfighters r better r better than riflemen because riflemen stink at close range.

Eteocles ,

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But this wasn't supposed to be about rifles, it was supposed to be about how confused the devs got (we think) when trying to balance DPS, delay, weapons, specials, etc., when half of that didn't matter once you got into 90+ speed range. Recall, they have said numerous times "balanced because while it does high damage, it's slow", which we know to not be true.

IMO this can be a very good thing for rifles, in that you will likely get something else, more appropriate, to boost performance, rather than shooting as fast as a pistol...

I love the math here and is a nice portrayal of how each class is being represented DPS wise. A few things to be careful of when doing this. Make sure all the weapons are from the same weaponsmith with the same materials as much as possible. I've noticed some much higher stats with FWG's out there then what u have listed (pre slice). Also, try to compare weapons of like origions. Comparing T21's (a rifleman cert) to pistols and carbines (marksman certs) is a little misleading. If there is a problme with the gun, then thats a bug.....but comparing most popular versus items of likeness is not a true representation. Also, careful with the T21 numbers, those are pre nerf. I was shopping for a T21 and all I could find is 113-333 7.2 speed. Those numbers with 100% rifle speed i believe come out to 120. Though I applaud the effort. Next time I hit my house Im gonna check out the local weaponsmith and run the numbers all over again and see where everything falls just for my own curiousity.

Tilen
Scylla

I'm a rifleman and I think a lot of ppl are missing the fact that pistols can be made to have a max damage of 380 easily. 1 kryat tissue is required for a Fwg5 (and oftentimes 10+ tissues drop) that makes a 224 max damage FWG5, i have one. tack on a 30% slice and a 32% powerup, that's about 380. +30 damage tissues are the most common and that's what's in my pistol, tissues go up to 100+. Comparing the damage of pistolteers to rifleman isn't really a fair comparison. Rifleman take much much longer to achieve master. Plus imagine your attacks taking mind damage instead of health and action (129 mind damage/s), and ask yourself if you would still want to be a pistolteer? I'd imagine you'd say "Well.. only if i get to do massive damage for it", isn't that what a master rifleman is?

Riflemans limiting factor ISN'T speed but our HAM costs... Yes we may out dmg you 1 on 1at master but thats for only 15 seconds and then we are put of mind... In PvE and in battles Rifleman run out of mind and end up sitting in the middle of battles cause we cant do much else... Im sorry but the speed issue is not that important, i agree its buged but since everyone is effected the same way and the dev team balanced around it, i dont really see why its a problem. You pistols get to SPAM specials all day long and thats what you get out of this deal.You get LONG term higher dps while rifleman getSHORT term higher dps.

Am I wrong (which i'm not LOL)? thenwhats wrong with my arguement?

Incredible post! Good work in pointing out flaws in the game. I don't have time to read all of the replies but I got a few of them in. Alot complain about how you didn't include accuracy or specials. But I think overall the differences in the actual dps and speed is so huge that that other issues are just minor ones. I am a pistoleer myself. In group hunting I do the least amount of dmg by far and would love to see this fixed.

Kanuck

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Boborina wrote:

Riflemans limiting factor ISN'T speed but our HAM costs... Yes we may out dmg you 1 on 1 at master but thats for only 15 seconds and then we are put of mind... In PvE and in battles Rifleman run out of mind and end up sitting in the middle of battles cause we cant do much else... Im sorry but the speed issue is not that important, i agree its buged but since everyone is effected the same way and the dev team balanced around it, i dont really see why its a problem. You pistols get to SPAM specials all day long and thats what you get out of this deal.You get LONG term higher dps while rifleman get SHORT term higher dps.

Am I wrong (which i'm not LOL)? then whats wrong with my arguement?

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What is wrong with your argues ? Almost everything, really.

First, the speed "bug" is much more important you even start to realise. The simple fact it affects YOU a bit doesn't mean this "bug" isn't a problem at all. It's called overall balancing and being able to dmg someone in 5 seconds for 15 times his best pool while others can't even do the half of your smallest one isn't what we can call "balanced", period.

You state a Rifleman will go OOM (Out Of Mind, yeah I played EQ) quickly on battlefields, keep in mind Pistoleers don't even have this chance on Battlefields, we're dead long ago...or we are clever enought to put on us an armor, forcing us to migrate stats. If Riflemen are stupid enought to not raise their Mind Pool accordingly with their playstyle, what can we do for you exactly ? If your aim is to tell us the speed "bug" is not a problem ONLY because you don't want to migrate your stats, you'd better go troll elsewhere, many of us are a bit nervous because of ignorants.

We input many stats, many numbers and solutions (I personnally still think mine is the best but not the problam here) but there is still ppl coming here and with some very limited explanation have the faith to affirm it won't enhance them enought for this to be important enought. Priceless.

Do you realise with the 3.0 sec delay, your explanation just failed ? You have 3 seconds between your devastating shots to recover the faster recovery rate pool, still miss the point ? in others words : you won't be able to kill freely 5 ppl as soon as the fight begins, you'll be forced to play as a team and step back to snipe the most dangerous opponent and kill him (still very easily). Riflemen aren't melee fighters, they are range killers.


Oh, and yes we have to spam with specials because our best one will only deliver the fourth of what your crappiest one will do...you're still outdmging us, even with the 3 sec delay.


Add to this it makes PERFECT sense and you'll answer yourself your questions : yes you're wrong and almost everything is wrong with your arguement.

I went kryat hunting with my master pistolteer/CH buddy. After 15s i was completely out of mind, for the next min or two I just toted along autofiring until he pretty much killed the kryat. I've no complaints, it just emphasizes that the ability to heal your drain pools is great. And he can shoot at any distance, so long as he doesn't sit still.

3s delay doesn't discount the argument that mind drainage is a problem for rifleman. i have every stat in mind/focus/will, and there's no way i regenerate even 15% of 129 damage in 3s in battle.

You're right, Riflemen are ranged killers. Therefore they should have the most damaging attacks. My pistolteer friend hit me in a duel for 350-400 every second (and don't tell me i'm lying either). So if pistolteers get their speed halved and a rifleman's speed doubled, so then if my friend will now hit for 700-800 every sec i should hit for 3x that amount as a rifleman. So i'll hit for 2100-2400 after 75% reduction (this is assuming rifleman and pistolteer will have the same DPS after these developer mods). Would everyone in this forum be happy with that? Seeing a 2400 avg damage after 75% reduction? Could you tell me that no one is going to complain about that?

The way i see things, rifleman will always moan about taking unhealable mind damage for their shots and accuracy problems and want increased damage to compensate. Pistolteers will always moan about dps not being equal, and want increased damage to be equal. Although the only way to be truely equal is if pistolteer specials start taking mind damage and we all had the same DPS (after AP mods). No one answered my previous question, would any of you want that? Would any of you think it's fair?

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Phuobar wrote:

The question being addressed is "just how good are master pistoleer vs other". So it's immaterial how long it takes to master a profession and it's immaterial how many skill points get spent.

As the original poster said, the weapons used were representative on his server. Really, the original poster could had just be abstract and say that rifle DPS at 95 speed with AR2 is a 31x multiplier whereas as a master pistoleer DPS multiplier is 5x at 79 speed. Anyway you slice it, 31x multiplier is much more powerful than a 5x multipler.

Yes, one can master craft a pistol, slice, power-up and get a max damage of 400. Likewise, one can do the same to the rifle. So this stat really isn't important.

The point the original poster made is very valid. 1) at speed 100, one have infinite speed and can dish a tremendous amount of damage over time. 2) armor piercing of weapon have a large effect on damage and all balancing must take into consideration the AP in addition to speed. & 3) pistoleer hit the speed cap whereas other doesn't.

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Just a clarification, rifleman and pistolteers have the same 5x multiplier with their most damaging attacks.
a T21 on my server has a max damage of 330 (i don't remember the min damage). But the average damage is about 200. before modifiers are taken into account, it's 1.5x. So 200x1.5x5 = 1500 avg damage per 1.5s at master.
Assuming the avg damage of a well made unsliced fwg5 is probably about 125, it's 125x1.5x5=938 damage per second.

Keep in mind these calcs don't include AP calculations.

Cepha, what about AP on T21 ? This is a 4x modifer by itself, it negates pvp restriction by itself. 1OOO dmg per second in pvp is huge.

This is respecting your own datas, can't understand all your multiplier but AP should be taken into account.

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Dyriel wrote:
Cepha, what about AP on T21 ? This is a 4x modifer by itself, it negates pvp restriction by itself. 1OOO dmg per second in pvp is huge.

This is respecting your own datas, can't understand all your multiplier but AP should be taken into account.

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AP is bugged in pvp, i don't get the bonuses and this i know. Btw it's 2x. 1.25x1.25x1.25 is 1.95x on AR0

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Cepha wrote:

Just a clarification, rifleman and pistolteers have the same 5x multiplier with their most damaging attacks.
a T21 on my server has a max damage of 330 (i don't remember the min damage). But the average damage is about 200. before modifiers are taken into account, it's 1.5x. So 200x1.5x5 = 1500 avg damage per 1.5s at master.
Assuming the avg damage of a well made unsliced fwg5 is probably about 125, it's 125x1.5x5=938 damage per second.

Keep in mind these calcs don't include AP calculations.

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Not what I meant. Average DPS is calculated as (Ave Weapon Damage) * (Special Modifier) / (Modified speed).

It can also be written as (Ave Weapon Damage/Weapon Speed) * (Special Modifier) * (1/(1-speed skill))

Let's look at the first term, which is weapon only. Using Philosopher1976 number, T21 rifle is damage 171-462 weapon speed 8.8, armor piercing 3. FWG5 is 40-168 2.2s AP 0.

The ave DPS for T21 is ((171+462)/2/8.8s)*(1.25^3) = 70.25. The ave DPS for FWG5 is ((40+168)/2/2.2)*(1.25^0)=47.27. So from a weapon only perspective, the T21 trump the pistol in that does 50% more damage than the pistol. For a "balanced" weapon, they should be about the same. Rifle does more damage, but take longer. Pistol does less damage, but faster. Regardless, over time, they both should be doing the same damage per time periold if they are to be considered balanced.

The highest special modifier is the same for both, so we can ignore that.

A master rifleman speed is 95 whereas as a master pistoleer (with master marksman) pistol speed is 79. At speed 95, the damage multiplier due to speed skill is 1/(1-0.95)=20x. The damage multiplier due to speed skill for pistol is 1/(1-0.79)=4.76x. In other word, in addition to the rifle doing more damage, the speed skill modifier will let the rifleman do 4 times more damage. Combining these 2 means the rifleman does 7x more damage over time than a pistoleer.

This is on autofire, so no HAM cost.

And it doesn't take in account the net speed cap of 1.0 sec which the pistoleer will hit but the rifleman won't.