Pistoleer Archive
Thread: How Speed Works In The Game: The #1 Issue Facing Pistoleers
Boborina wrote:
Riflemans limiting factor ISN'T speed but our HAM costs... Yes we may out dmg you 1 on 1at master but thats for only 15 seconds and then we are put of mind... In PvE and in battles Rifleman run out of mind and end up sitting in the middle of battles cause we cant do much else... Im sorry but the speed issue is not that important, i agree its buged but since everyone is effected the same way and the dev team balanced around it, i dont really see why its a problem. You pistols get to SPAM specials all day long and thats what you get out of this deal.You get LONG term higher dps while rifleman getSHORT term higher dps.
Am I wrong (which i'm not LOL)? thenwhats wrong with my arguement?
Yes, you are 100% correct in that Riflemen use up their mind very quickly and can't spam specials for long periods of time.
HOWEVER, any argument that rifleman are at a disadvantage because their mind power drains so quickly is bogus because:
If you are in PvP, and you are spamming your specials and doing insane mind damage, ... what do you think will happen to your target? HE DIES!! Pistoleers and Carbiniers CANNOT do damage as fast as a rifle. Do the math! There's billions of posts on the boards that show the hard numbers. Thus, in 1-on-1 PvP, it's the rifleman that comes out winning. The fact that you have to sit and rest up for a while to regain your mind back is little consolation to the mindless, incapacitated pistoleer lying on the ground.
Now, obviously PvP is rarely a 1-on-1 battle. Ya know what? It makes NO DIFFERENCE. If you were in a rebel/imperial skirmish fighting with equal forces on either side,... just the fact that you were able to take out at least one target on the battlefield means that YOU HAVE DONE YOUR SHARE in the battle, and all else being equal, your side will win.
The fact that eyeshots and BH/Pistoleers are more powerful than a rifleman in PvP may be true, But who cares?! Someone's gotta be more powerful... and it might as well be the class combination that has to spend oodles more skill points to get there than you. If you're gonna compare rifleman to something... it has to be to regular carbiniers and pistoleers. They take the same amount of skill points to achieve, and is the only thing you should expect to be closely balanced to (which, as I've said above, is not the case).
Now, I've heard rifleman say that they end up doing more damage to themselves than to the target (because of missed shots, armored targets, etc). That's a load of crap. You can do a LOT more damage to your target's mind than to your own.
Philosopher -
In your riefleman example, where is the 2.4 specialdelay modifier coming from ? If you shoot a rifle with a speed of 5.4 with no specials doesnt it shoot at 5.4 minus whatever your rifle speed is?
-Ffej Nitram, Novice Pistoleer - Bloodfin
The infinite speed solution by inversing the speed formula is just gimping the mid to high-end skill, making it worthless to progress up the skill unless you exponentially dish up speed skill at the mid to high-end.
Question: is speed a problem at low end? mid range? mid-high? or high only?
Answer: If speed is a problem at high end only (95+ speed skill), then only gimp the high-end only, don't gimp the rest (low to mid-high).
Better solution is just cap the high-end speed skill.
In your riefleman example, where is the 2.4 specialdelay modifier coming from ? If you shoot a rifle with a speed of 5.4 with no specials doesnt it shoot at 5.4 minus whatever your rifle speed is?
The 2.4s is the double tap delay. Auto-attack have no delay. So shooting a 5.4 s rifle with no speical will shoot at 5.4 s (of course, this is reduced by the speed skill).
I don't think anyone has a good handle on balance.
That means that it's only messed up, in our best estimation, when you reach cap or near it.
You can reach cap with speeds as low as 50, depending on your weapon speed and the special you use, so capping it would be reducing speed significantly. I really think it should be calculated differently altogether.
Phuobar wrote:The infinite speed solution by inversing the speed formula is just gimping the mid to high-end skill, making it worthless to progress up the skill unless you exponentially dish up speed skill at the mid to high-end.
Question: is speed a problem at low end? mid range? mid-high? or high only?
Answer: If speed is a problem at high end only (95+ speed skill), then only gimp the high-end only, don't gimp the rest (low to mid-high).
Better solution is just cap the high-end speed skill.
It's a much better solution to fix the speed equation to be linear, then rebalance with that fix in mind. It shouldn't be difficult to make higher boxes add more speed if it turns out that balance requires it (I'm not convinced it does). The problem with the current non-linear-in-DPS equation is that you can't balance it when you have multiple sources of a skill mod. A +10 speed mod tape is currently worth enormous amounts to a person with +80 speed, very little to someone with +0, and nothing to someone with +100. This makes balancing highly nontrivial and significantly limits future additions to player growth.
Thx for writing this - is an utter myth that pistol is powerful to my mind and I have fan shot & a 200+ damage pistol. Friend I fight with just chucked pistoleer as he does more damage with a bazaar bought carbine at level 3 lower marksman tree.
Gun equipped and with the technique column I have only twice on tat seen a mission that pays 2000. Novice commando with no boxes gets 4 -4.5 k missions from the same terminal and since the missions seem to pay according to one's damage potential says it all I think - a novice commando with no xp is 2.5 times stronger than a pistoleer with a +200 damage pistol and trickshot.