Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Discussion Thread: Dual Wielding Pistols
ThisIsTheMatrix
Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:05 pm
#66
Thx...hehe...I do not know how to do that. I just copy and paste hehe, just learned how to quote someones post about 3 weeks ago and i have been here since launch.
WesBelden wrote:
ThisIsTheMatrix wrote:
This is my idea for implementing the dual wield.....
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=65131
Clickity for you
shakaan
Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:52 pm
#67
LordMaxx wrote:
Yes, great to see the poll thread bumped just about daily...but some of you are cheating signing more than once!
My question is when the developers do work on Dual wielding pistols, what should the mechanics behind it be? Im sure they already have some ideas of their own, but if we can come up with a very well balanced and professional design document they may take it into consideration.
It would be easy to say things like...well just cuts your speed in half...but that doesnt exactly evoke balance. This ability should upgrade your combat abilities, but there must also be costs...
Im assuming most of the community will want it to be a Master Pistoleer skill which is fine by me...but discuss that also if you have differing opinions.
Some of the optional Pros and Cons to dual wielding could be this:
Speed Bonuses
Damage Bonuses
Accuracy Penalty
Movement Speed Penalty
Both Weapons must be same type
Both Weapons must have same Serial
Limited Specials Use
No Specials Use
And there could be many more...think of how you could take the above bonuses and penalties and make a balanced and fair pistoleer ability. Also Im sure there are other bonuses and penalties that could apply post those also if you think of them.
Speed Bonuses - yes if a pistoleer is not bh xx4x this would be his special which caps the speed.
Damage Bonuses - yes but for the cost of higher ham costs per special and not a too high damage multiplicator.
Accuracy Penalty - yes ...while moving + dual wielding pistols should decrease the chance to hit but not the higher speed and damage. And maybe decrease the pistol acc a bit at all.
Movement Speed Penalty - No! definitely because it would cause using this for an advantage in pvp by melee profs - we have to kite and keep the distance. if penalty for accuracy at all and specially while moving then no movement penalty.
Both Weapons must be the same ype - yes because it would allow using 1.) 2 different kinds of dotweapons to stick at same time (all looted weapon should be unique type) 2.) it would otherwise allow to use 2 different damage types at same time what would be an unfair advantage in PVP.
Both Weapons must have same Serial - Hell No!! that would mean we pistoleers could trash our very expensive and rare crafted high damage pistols. I like to see new weapons for all profs in the game to have a better selection but dont make special weapons for the dual wield that wouldnt be good for the people who has a nice selection of weapons already.
Limited Specials Use - Maybe but im not sure what u mean with that 
if that means special pistols with limited use of dual wield then NO! because youcould trash maybe very expensive weapons after the uses or just craft cheap ones. If that means special uses in combat then the using of dual wield pistol has to have a very high damage multiplicator.
No Specials Use - I think yes because of my suggestions above.
shakan 
(Master Bounty Hunter/Master Pistoleer/Leader of the Mandalorian Death Squad/DWB Leader of Infinity)
Jedi Kill Count : 19 kills / 15 griefes 
***may the exploit be with you jedi ... not always***
Orosc
Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:18 am
#68
First off let me say this "THERE IS NO NET BENEFEIT FOR MULTIPLE DAMAGE TYPES FOR A PREPARED PISTOLEER"
If you have one of a type of pistol chances are you have two, and one of your pistols will be the best at any target(at most he will have the same resist, in which you simply use your best pistol), so use two of them. The only, and I repeat only time it would be useful is if you had two of each type of pistol but had 1 of each type that was exceptionally better, and the target had the same resist.
I say for the penalty make a hard cap of 42m (or whatever stun gun is) when using dual pistols, becuase you simply would NOT be able to use two at a target at maximum range(dont lower range of stun gun, becuase its limit is supposedly a technical limit, so not having aim wouldnt further limit it as long as it shot strait until its max range). Also make the guns consider 42 their max range for considering accuracy adjustments (42m uses max range penalty). As well as a some penalty accross the board for just using 2 pistols (say -10 or so). Also possibly add a hard delay to the time to shoot NOT 1 second, as for everyone who is speed capped (which is alot) this would mean that the only benefeit to dual wielding is lowering their max range and accuracy and to "look cool".
For ease of implementation, I wouldn't be opposed to forcing the same type of gun, that way all that would need to be done is add the damages, use slowest speed, use lowest accuracies, and combine the HAMS. Make the pistols fire simulaneously for ease of figuring specials and what not.
SIDE NOTE: just friggen fix speed calculations, as of right now if your speed 95+ a 5 speed weapon just as good as a .5 speed one. If a blanket change was made so there wasnt such a thing as a speed cap (or at least it was an unobtainably one) then perhaps pistoleer wouldnt even be so starved for repair, as rifles and polearms would actually be slower than a pistol. Of course this would effectively be nerfing everyone, just pistols to a lesser extent. So will probably not be done just becuase of the outcry of everyone who is happy with their 500 dmg heavy AP speed 10 weapon shooting every sec, the same speed at which the pistoleers 200 dmg light AP, 2 speed weapon is.
Shortned version:
Causes: Speed is pistols strength, speed of weapon is irrelevant once player speed ~97,
Effects: Pistoleers beg for more damage even at massive expense of accuracyand range, pistols will still not be as powerful as other weapons(all around consideration), and other weapon classes will complain pistols got a huge advantage while they were ignored.
LordMaxx
Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:36 am
#69
shakaan wrote:Limited Specials Use - Maybe but im not sure what u mean with that
No Specials Use - I think yes because of my suggestions above.
shakan(Master Bounty Hunter/Master Pistoleer/Leader of the Mandalorian Death Squad/DWB Leader of Infinity)Jedi Kill Count : 19 kills / 15 griefes***may the exploit be with you jedi ... not always***
By specials I mean the shots you fire...healthshot bodyshot etc. etc...
Limiting to only a few of those...or maybe limiting to none at all...The point is to make dual wielding useful...but not overpowerful...as for people equpping multiple DoT weapons I doubt that will happen much...you equip you dot weapon when you need to reapply then quickly switch it back out.
LordMaxx
Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:39 am
#70
Nimhnoid wrote:I would say Double HAM would be very nice penalty. (Not sure if HAM will still be an issue after the rebalance.)mild reduced accuracyMaybe reduced speed on the second gun held.
Well considering HAM costs arent an issue now...I think after the revamp they will be...it use to be that you actually had to take the HAM costs of your weapon into consideration when getting weapons...but now with uber buffs and musician buffs etc...HAM costs are all but negated...I think the devs will want to take us back to the old days of actually caring about HAM costs...
djswift2k
Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
#71
I dont think its valid to discuss this under the games current mechanics when it is going to be implemented in a stage after the combat balance,especially while the people discussing here have not yet been briefed on that information. this discussion should be brought up later, at a more applicable time, because under the current knowledge, its completely moot because so many things will be changing.
stealth
valcyn server
oldest pistoleer on valcyn.
Jibbrish
Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:41 pm
#72
Good point, some combat balance info would help.
But it should still be master only.
shakaan
Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:48 pm
#73
/nod
we need more info to say sure what would be good and what not... or we have to put too many if and else in this discussion.
but i think my ideas are great anyways 
f.e.
- will the weapon switch delay bedisabled? i hate this crazy nerf for bhs...
- how will the ham revamp look like? will it have a big effect on the max specials we can use? and will buffs really get nerfed?
- is armor still as effectiv as it is today?
- do we get finally also ap2 to make more than 20damage per hit on a heavy armor NPC or MOB?
- are there any other significant changes that would effect combat relevant circumstances?
-will the overall damage of the weapons that might be pre combat balanced and not change ?
im sure there are even more relevant issues we have to know to make a precise discussion of how it should look like.
or it is just a vague discussion and you have to ask us for a vote like you did in the A or B question for having dual wield at master box.
Message Edited by shakaan on 10-21-2004 02:58 PM
AraDanBynobi
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:55 pm
#74
Yeah, without knowing to much about the revamp alot of our ideas may be out of contention just because they aren't meshing with the new rules.
For me, Dual Weilding should fire alternately, if your fool enough to shoot two at once anyway, you'd adopt a fire right then left then right etc etc style.
Both pistols HAM costs should be present if firing alternately. There is no reason why they should increase or decrease from what is on the gun already, maybe your offhand experiences a +10% hit, if only because its a weak hand??
While I think we should fire alternately, I also think some specials like overcharge or StoppingShot (or a new OverchargeDual and DualStopping) where it would be one big burst from both guns with a delay. Very high end damage output but your next shots won't be fore like 3-10 seconds (adjusted for speed mods)
MultiTargetShot should be the main advantage to Dual Weilding, faster shots to all enemies, or two shots to all enemies. Whats the point of two guns unless being used to cover to arcs and increase your damages??
Accuracy should be less, but not as much as what others have be postulating. Not to get technical but energy weapons other then lasers do in fact have a kick (anything that heats or expands preceeding air creates Kinetic effect at the non-shielded muzzel and on its target do to explosive combustion, oops got technical
), even some lasers have a kick at the source as well as at the target. It surprises me that so many say they have shot pistols and then say accuracy should be decrease overall, when any Pistol shooter knows that it's not your on target accuracy thats affected its your accuracy-over-distance (I was shooting Dad's .44 at 10, it had a awful hand/arm numbing kick, but I still hit the target at 10 meters and consistently, but not at 25m). So Accuracy should be tuned to Closer ranges, (ie -20m ideal mod when dual weilding). Also the sheer fact that your focus can not target multiple targets easily is a factor in accuracy, you just shouldn't be seeing things happening for both weapons to aim at.
There's more but I think everyone is covering it all really well.
Ara-Dan
For me, Dual Weilding should fire alternately, if your fool enough to shoot two at once anyway, you'd adopt a fire right then left then right etc etc style.
Both pistols HAM costs should be present if firing alternately. There is no reason why they should increase or decrease from what is on the gun already, maybe your offhand experiences a +10% hit, if only because its a weak hand??
While I think we should fire alternately, I also think some specials like overcharge or StoppingShot (or a new OverchargeDual and DualStopping) where it would be one big burst from both guns with a delay. Very high end damage output but your next shots won't be fore like 3-10 seconds (adjusted for speed mods)
MultiTargetShot should be the main advantage to Dual Weilding, faster shots to all enemies, or two shots to all enemies. Whats the point of two guns unless being used to cover to arcs and increase your damages??
Accuracy should be less, but not as much as what others have be postulating. Not to get technical but energy weapons other then lasers do in fact have a kick (anything that heats or expands preceeding air creates Kinetic effect at the non-shielded muzzel and on its target do to explosive combustion, oops got technical
), even some lasers have a kick at the source as well as at the target. It surprises me that so many say they have shot pistols and then say accuracy should be decrease overall, when any Pistol shooter knows that it's not your on target accuracy thats affected its your accuracy-over-distance (I was shooting Dad's .44 at 10, it had a awful hand/arm numbing kick, but I still hit the target at 10 meters and consistently, but not at 25m). So Accuracy should be tuned to Closer ranges, (ie -20m ideal mod when dual weilding). Also the sheer fact that your focus can not target multiple targets easily is a factor in accuracy, you just shouldn't be seeing things happening for both weapons to aim at.There's more but I think everyone is covering it all really well.
Ara-Dan
Dracovious
Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:43 am
#75
Here is my stance and maybe some questions that could be answered.
I personally believe a Master Pistoleer should be more competative in PvP and duel wield can add that ability. Oh yeah, don't forget about the holsters 
I think the ability should be at the Master Level besides if its available at the start, where is the status and recognition of Mastering the pistoleer profession.
Now a series of Question: Whould you still do the same damage as if you were holding one weapon duel wielding? If not, then will you be able to use 2 different damage types at a time or do the guns have to match? Or will only a newly created gun that offers dueal wielding like (Dueling Pistols [no pun intended]) and all others offer single wield?
Just some of my thoughts and ideas
Gulerin
Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:53 pm
#76
AraDanBynobi wrote:
While I think we should fire alternately, I also think some specials like overcharge or StoppingShot (or a new OverchargeDual and DualStopping) where it would be one big burst from both guns with a delay. Very high end damage output but your next shots won't be fore like 3-10 seconds (adjusted for speed mods)
MultiTargetShot should be the main advantage to Dual Weilding, faster shots to all enemies, or two shots to all enemies. Whats the point of two guns unless being used to cover to arcs and increase your damages??
Those would be very cool specials to have. MTPS already has dual pistols on its icon (coincidence? I hope not!). As for the synced vs alternating fire mode, wouldn't the different speeds of different pistols throw even more weight in the corner of alternating fire? Even if they start out firing simultaneously, within just a couple rounds the difference would be noticeable.
Typho
Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:21 pm
#77
1)Should only work with guns with the same damage. I don't think the devs would let us use two different damage type weapons.
2)They should be alternate fire. This would require a lowering of the speed cap to around .70 - .80.
2)The ideal range should get lowered by 15% when dual wielding.
3)Pistol accuracy (while standing, moving, etc.) should be lowered by 15%.
4)Pistoleers should get a new shot that only works while dual wielding. This shot would overwhelm the other player (knock down) and keep them from returning fire for 20 seconds. Once stuck it can't be used again for a minute.
5)Dual wield should be a master only ability. This would give more insentive to master the profession.
Message Edited by Typho on 10-22-2004 06:22 PM
LordMaxx
Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:02 am
#78
djswift2k wrote:I dont think its valid to discuss this under the games current mechanics when it is going to be implemented in a stage after the combat balance,especially while the people discussing here have not yet been briefed on that information. this discussion should be brought up later, at a more applicable time, because under the current knowledge, its completely moot because so many things will be changing.stealthvalcyn serveroldest pistoleer on valcyn.
I believe its ok to talk of the dual wielding since the revamp will mainly be balancing the professions, we will still be pistoleers, and whether or not it goes at master or grows across the board is a valid standpoint