Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Discussion Thread: Dual Wielding Pistols
LordMaxx
Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:19 am
#53
Well there have been a few threads talking about different ways to implement the dual wield...
We need to think if this is just a Master Pistoleer quirk that allows us to boost our abilities, or if this is going to be a developed skill that could span an entire tree and maybe skillset...
Maybe a Dual Pistol Accuracy Mod. You get the ability to Dual wield with Novice Pistoleer and Dual Pistol Accuracy +30 (as opposed to +55 accuracy a pistoleer currently has at this point)
The pistol grips line would be the dual wielding tree, In that tree you would recieve specials and Accuracy bonuses for dual wielding.
Thats just one idea...So the 2 thoughts we need to seperate first are whether this is a developed skill throughout the pistoleer tree, or if this is just an ability gained at Master Pistoleer. Think Ill post a new thread for folks to vote for one week on one or the other. go vote HERE
We need to think if this is just a Master Pistoleer quirk that allows us to boost our abilities, or if this is going to be a developed skill that could span an entire tree and maybe skillset...
Maybe a Dual Pistol Accuracy Mod. You get the ability to Dual wield with Novice Pistoleer and Dual Pistol Accuracy +30 (as opposed to +55 accuracy a pistoleer currently has at this point)
The pistol grips line would be the dual wielding tree, In that tree you would recieve specials and Accuracy bonuses for dual wielding.
Thats just one idea...So the 2 thoughts we need to seperate first are whether this is a developed skill throughout the pistoleer tree, or if this is just an ability gained at Master Pistoleer. Think Ill post a new thread for folks to vote for one week on one or the other. go vote HERE
Message Edited by LordMaxx on 10-19-2004 12:24 PM
Jibbrish
Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:41 am
#54
I have to say Master, otherwise we are essetially saying to the people doing the combat revamp "take the duel wield damage into account when you're figuring out our place in SWG combat."
Plus, putting it into master means dabbling doesn't give the double damage bonus that mastering this skill gives, hopefully encouraging people to master and hold pistoleer. It makes the duel wield something earned, not something that every schmo can do.
Rockhurst
Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:46 am
#55
Jibbrish wrote:
Plus, putting it into master means dabbling doesn't give the double damage bonus that mastering this skill gives, hopefully encouraging people to master and hold pistoleer. It makes the duel wield something earned, not something that every schmo can do.
I disagree. I don't see why someone needs to be a master pistoleer in order to dual wield cdef's. Dual wielding can be implemented in a progressive skill kind of way (option B) that allows dabblingplayers to enjoy the visual aspect of it, but yet saving the high damage and best dual wielded pistols/specials for Master.
Message Edited by Rockhurst on 10-19-2004 09:47 AM
Message Edited by Rockhurst on 10-20-2004 06:42 AM
WesBelden
Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:54 pm
#56
LordMaxx wrote:
Also they need to have a twirly move in so that when we get holsters we can twirl them into it! lol
Ah, yeh, good point 
Jaguarrr
Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:44 am
#57
Dual wielding, I love it 
So hereare my ideas:
- Put the certification to dual-wield a pistol two (or more) skill boxes up, so dual-wielding DX2s would go into the II-trees of pistoleer. At master you can dual-wield any pistol (dual scatters would be in BH-Pistols II then)
- Speed, hmm average +1 or +2. Or maybe a more complex formula that keeps in account that the greater the diff in speed of the pistols is, the less the bonus is.
- Damage, AP andHAM, both rolled seperate. So they technically add, but AP and different damage type dont make a problem
- Accuracy and specials, this is a tricky one. Penality on single target, a little bonus on area-attacks (maybe 20 sec on panicshot)
- modified specials, /meleedefense1 & 2 have an area-effect dual wielded ("Equilibrium" is a fine movie for pistoleer fans)
Sobyv
Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:34 am
#59
I think if we could determine which firing mode we use:
Mode 1: Alternative firing. Which means firing one after the other. Same as previously mentioned, speed increase, accuracy dropoff at medium range, added ham costs. With specials that fire both pistols at the same time.
Mode 2: Selective firing. Being able to SELECT which pistol to use, effectively circumventing the weapon switch delay or reducing it. EG: I use a geo in my right hand and a republic blaster my left and I hit single wield(left) so I'm using my rebublic blaster, but then I want to switch damage types, I hit Single Wield (right) and my geo comes up REAL fast hehe.
Mode 1: Alternative firing. Which means firing one after the other. Same as previously mentioned, speed increase, accuracy dropoff at medium range, added ham costs. With specials that fire both pistols at the same time.
Mode 2: Selective firing. Being able to SELECT which pistol to use, effectively circumventing the weapon switch delay or reducing it. EG: I use a geo in my right hand and a republic blaster my left and I hit single wield(left) so I'm using my rebublic blaster, but then I want to switch damage types, I hit Single Wield (right) and my geo comes up REAL fast hehe.
LordMaxx
Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:38 am
#60
One of the problems of queueing up specials is our move queue is a VERY linear thing, and changing that would be downright impossible.
It is my belief that the weapons will essentially be combined as far as what damage/speed/costs/moves is concerned.
If you have 2 CDEFs and dual wielding and they are the same and their stats are 20-40 2.0 speed 10/20/10 HAM Costs +10/+5/-20 then your Dual wielded combined weapon actual stat could be:
40-80 1.5spd 20/40/20 HAM 0/-5/-40 just random numbers, but essentially whatever the animation is doing, the combined weapon stats would be what is used for moves and such...what does this do to damage type? I dont know. That may be one reason why they should limit it to same weapon type...or maybe same damage type.
Being a programmer myself I look at how the combat system works with the queue, and how the system uses weapon stats to perform attack actions, and we have to see how dual wielding can be integrated.
It could be possible to insert alternating fire, one Weapon at a time, and your queue basically uses each action on alternating pistols so if I have a geo and a republic equipped and I spam Bodyshot3, Healthshot2, Bodyshot2, Fanshot...The Geo would fire BS3, republic HS2, then Geo BS2, then republic Fanshot...but that could get very confusing trying to set your queue correctly...the other alternative is specials run twice when you queue them...the above example would mean Geo fires BS3, then republic BS3, then Geo HS2, republic HS2 etc... but then that would make it hard to plan your bleeds and states and KDs would really be messed up so I dont see that happening.
Try to think of how your ideas would work in the current architecture of the combat system.
It is my belief that the weapons will essentially be combined as far as what damage/speed/costs/moves is concerned.
If you have 2 CDEFs and dual wielding and they are the same and their stats are 20-40 2.0 speed 10/20/10 HAM Costs +10/+5/-20 then your Dual wielded combined weapon actual stat could be:
40-80 1.5spd 20/40/20 HAM 0/-5/-40 just random numbers, but essentially whatever the animation is doing, the combined weapon stats would be what is used for moves and such...what does this do to damage type? I dont know. That may be one reason why they should limit it to same weapon type...or maybe same damage type.
Being a programmer myself I look at how the combat system works with the queue, and how the system uses weapon stats to perform attack actions, and we have to see how dual wielding can be integrated.
It could be possible to insert alternating fire, one Weapon at a time, and your queue basically uses each action on alternating pistols so if I have a geo and a republic equipped and I spam Bodyshot3, Healthshot2, Bodyshot2, Fanshot...The Geo would fire BS3, republic HS2, then Geo BS2, then republic Fanshot...but that could get very confusing trying to set your queue correctly...the other alternative is specials run twice when you queue them...the above example would mean Geo fires BS3, then republic BS3, then Geo HS2, republic HS2 etc... but then that would make it hard to plan your bleeds and states and KDs would really be messed up so I dont see that happening.
Try to think of how your ideas would work in the current architecture of the combat system.
Rockhurst
Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:56 am
#61
LordMaxx wrote: Try to think of how your ideas would work in the current architecture of the combat system.
Assumption: We can use different serial # weapons (so we can use DE-10's)
Assumption: We must use the same type of weapon (no DE-10 + Scatter)
What would be easier to implement:
1) Combine the weapons' stats to have your dual wielded stats
2) Instead ofcombining the two weapons' stats it takes the stats of the lower weapon and doubles it
3) It takes an average of the stats then doubles them for our dual wield stats
I imagine #1 would be the ideal (since #2 sacrifices some of the power of our better weapon), but which options would we most be willing to settle for?
LassictheChosen
Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:31 am
#62
Okay,
For everyone who said we would do too much damage....I go back to one of my previous posts and refer you to the rifleman who does more than 3500 to everything he can see, in range, with his strafe shot, or watching a guy with brass knucklesdo more than 10k damage in a few seconds! I am not asking for that, but complaing that we might do 2k combined with 2 stopping shots from our 2 pistols, is a little ridiculous. I don't know what the Combat balance is going to do to the damage of the specials, but we need this to balance out our profession with the other comabt professions. A novice pistoleer should be able to Dual wield, but with the progression up the trees reducing penalties to accuracy. The speed and damage should be based off of your pistol speed mod and the weapon speed.A weapon is not going to shoot any slower for having one in each hand. The damage is based off of the shot you take and the weapon in use....again an issue completely irrelevant to having a pistol in each hand. Now, limiting the access of what kinds of pistols can be equipped in the off hand as a progression in the pistoleer tree as well as increased accuracy that goes up through progression, makes the most sense. It makes no sense to even try to change or "balance" the speed or AP of a weapon to the other. I mean, really, will a republic blaster ap1 magically change to an energy ap0 just because you are using an fwg in your off hand. No! So what if we get to use to different damage types at the same time.
The trade off has always been our speed and dodge abilities, but up until they give us two pistols it is not offset by our damage capabilites. We still don't have specials that work, Pistolmeleedef2 is broke, disarming shot doesn't work, pointblank area2 doesn't work and fanshot only hits and arc of about 30 degrees.
Lassic Chosen
House Davion
Radiant
Nimhnoid
Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:09 pm
#64
I would say Double HAM would be very nice penalty. (Not sure if HAM will still be an issue after the rebalance.)
mild reduced accuracy
Maybe reduced speed on the second gun held.
LordDixch
Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:31 pm
#65
Here are my thoughts on the subject, go off real life as much as possible:
In real life when using duel pistols you will never....ever.... ever see the two pistols being fired at the same time. It would be foolish to do so. Youd have next to no accuracy. WHat happens in real life is you fire each gun one at a time. Switching your aim between each sight. Im sure many of you have seen the matrix( the first one). the way they duel weilded in that movie was very close to accurate. In the lobby scene when neo had the two uzis and brought one up at a time was very accurate. While yes you can pull both triggers at the same time that mostly only used for covering fire not hitting your target.
Following this real life example would also add very nice ingame graphics. Id love to see my characters hands moving opposite each other due to recoil...
As for mods...they should also follow real life.... While duel weilding my accuracy in real life generally drops by 25% while fireing fast. In real life the reason for duel weilding pistols is to have more bullets, but since this game doesnt have bullets whe'll call it more damage. So i say do the damage of both guns at the same time while duel weilding. ( this also eliminates many problems of the attack que bar) You really dont shoot much faster while dueling in real life, infact you shoot a little slowerso keep the speed mod either the same as nowor.... add the speed mods on the weapons together and divid by 1.5. However this presents a major problem. At master pistoler you only have a speed mod of +79. So using two 2.7 speed pistols means a final speed of 3.6 weapon mod. this doesnt mean much to a simple master pistoler withtwo 150-300 dmg weapon( about 1.4k DPS) theyd get about 400 more DPS out of duel wield. However for someone like me with a max mod of +129 speed, if I got two geos with a strength the same as i have now of 180-400 dmg and 2.7 speed id be doing around 5k DPS as my max damage withlast ditchand 2k DPS per second with mind shot from BH. Pretty much this makes BH pistolers probably the most dangerous people in game!!!!!!!!! ( not that i mind) and i have seen geos and DE-10's with over 500 dmg as the max. So this will have to be tweaked a bit to keep BH's from doing the same kinda dmg to a jedi as a LLC but faster an more accuratly.
And i belive making it so you couldnt use specials while duel weilding would be utterly wastefull. thered be no point to duel wieding then.
On the ham issue maybe triple the ham cost. double isnt enough. Just makes it like a bad rifle. with most pistols I've seen. so as recap
Triple ham cost
add the damage together in same instant
add speed mod on weapon together then divid by half
reduce accuracy by 25%