Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer Issues Reported 8/01/03
Melt304: Is it becauseyou are SOOOOOO scared that they'll nerf BH that you still fail to see why Jaegen posted the issues the way he did. Geez he had just explained himself clearly again and you still came backbeating that dead Krahbu? Jaegen DOES focus on the pistoleer community and does a very good job of it.
Leave now and go play elsewhere
"I want the BH to come here and Prove to me that the BH is SUPPOSE to be the TRUE Master Pistoleer's."
I can only proove that the Pistoleer is the "TRUE" master.
So, when looking at who is the "master of the pistol" we can just look at the pistol specific stats. The special moves are going to be modified in the upcoming patch, particularly knockdown and PvP Damage. Further, effectiveness on special moves is highly variable due to weapon build/quality and the effects of individual stats. Thus, the most solid comparisons are empirical numbers.
So lets take a couple considerations:
1) How many total experience points does it take to be a Master Pistoleer vrs Master Bounty Hunter?
2) For that experience what does each profession get and what are the differences in cost?
3) How many skill points does it take to get each professions skill mods?
4) Given the costs Which profession is more efficient when using a pistol a) lethality b) survivability c) non combat activities
Results:
1) Costs - While the Bounty Hunter has more speed and accuracy than a Master Pistoleer he pays 3.5x for it in skill points and 1.34x in total experience points. In other words the Bounty Hunter pays a great deal more for his Mastery than the Pistoleer. Beyond the price for mastery are the lost opportunity costs which the Bounty Hunter gives up for his lethality rating. Winner - Pistoleer by a 3.5x
2) Lethality - The Bounty Hunter is granted 30 points of lethality aiding bonuses over the Pistoleer. This is 16% more lethality in Mods. Winner - Bounty Hunter by 1.16x
3) Survivability - The Pistoleer is granted 135 points of survivability aiding bonuses over the Bounty Hunter. This is 640% more survivability in Mods. Winner Pistoleer by 6.4x
Conclusion - Pistollers are better as using Pistols because they are more efficient in their use (by reflection of costs to use them) and they are far more likely to survive a fight in which they use Pistols. Perhaps elements of functionality within their mastery need to be addresses (e.g. Does dodge actually work or not) but in no way should they compare themselves disfavorably to the Bounty Hunter. The simple fact is... the Pistoleer and the Bounty Hunter are very different classes that both use Pistols. Each must be played differently. Yes, the Bounty Hunter has more lethality by a slim margin, but he earns that capability at huge expense to his opportunities and his capabilities for survival.
Data to follow:
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Master Pistoleer = 4,571,620 Total Experience Points & 92 Skill Points used
Resulting Mods (Master Pistoleer)
100Accuracy (Lethality)
50speed (Lethality)
7ranged defense (Survivability)
30dodge (Survivability)
16Aiming (Lethality)
30Acc while moving
20Def vrs Stun (Survivability)
20Def vrs Blind (Survivability)
20Def vrs Dizzy (Survivability)
20Def vrs Down (Survivability)
30Def vrs Knockdown (Survivability)
24Speed (Lethality)
13Melee Def (Survivability)
15Accuracy while standing (Lethality)
Total Lethality - 205
Total Survivability - 160
395Total
Experience Points for each Mod 11,573.7 (Exp/Mod total)
Skill Points for each Mod 0.233(SkillPts/Mod total)
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Master Bounty Hunter = 4,108,410 Total Experience Points & 217 Skill Points used
Resulting Mods (Master Bounty Hunter)
132Accuracy (Lethality)
85speed (Lethality)
23ranged defense (Survivability)
0dodge
0Aiming
0Acc while moving
0Def vrs Stun
0Def vrs Blind
0Def vrs Dizzy
0Def vrs Down
0Def vrs Knockdown
0Speed
2Melee Def (Survivability)
0Accuracy while standing
22General Ranged Aim (Lethality)
Total Lethality - 239
Total Survivability - 25
264Total
Experience Points for each Mod 15,562.1 (Exp/Mod total)
Skill Points for each Mod 0.822(SkillPts/Mod total)
Faust, Pistoleer & Bounty Hunter, Intrepid
Ok, first a silly question, where in the world are you getting 4,108,410 Total Experience Points & 217 Skill Points used for Bounty hunter, We're talking about PISTOL usage, not CLASS usage. the number's are:
Complete tree of Marksman/Scout plus Pistol line of BH =174 points and 1,673,790 exp.
Second, Why should a bounty hunter shoot better and faster with a gun that I'm suppose to be an expert in?
Third, "and they are far more likely to survive a fight in which they use Pistols." honestly, no, not after the new patch if it goes live. Obviously, BH aren't smart enough to realize something because they keep on missing it when they bring up their silly arguement, "you can train in medic and heal as I attack you". With the new changes especially, using your Eyeshot will hit my mind pool if I read it correctly, stimpack's don't heal mind, they reduce it, so you have a hell of an Advantage there. But I guess BH aren't to brite to see that or they are smarter then we think and are keeping that quiet so it's not nerfed /shrug
4th, Why are bounty hunter's more leathel with my pistol again?
5th, our dodge and defense crap isn't working or barely working if it is at all, but aren't you guys argueing over there on your boards that being Bounty Hunter's mean's you should be more defensive? Which by the way I'll throw a BH line back at a Bounty Hunter, You still have enough points left over to get Novice Pistoleer for some defense points 
(**edit**, that one felt good) and while your at it, so you don't cry foul play, I think you will still have enough points left over for medic for those stimpacks to protect yourselfs from out bodyshot3 which is worse then our bodyshot2 /shrug
anyways, back to work
Yes, your right. All Bunty Hunters are not too bright. Obviously that's the problem.
Some of us can read, however. Give it a shot.
That being said, I think the Pistoleer community is going about this ALLL wrong. Why are we trying so hard to get the BH's nerfed
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I wonder how many of these discussions would go "poof" if they read the issues report? It does not list any nerf. If so, let's debate the nerf in question...because I can't because it doesn't exist 
Ok, Who is saying we need to nerf BH? I think I missed something if everyone is saying that someone said it.
Before I say anything, let me point out that I am NOT a BH, I am in fact a Pistoleer.
That being said, I think the Pistoleer community is going about this ALLL wrong. Why are we trying so hard to get the BH's nerfed? Why does it always have to be the nerf bat? The class jealousy in this forum is just disgusting. You guys cry that our defensive abilities don't work, and then in the same breath you cry for BH nerfs and us getting new pistols. Hey, I have a really odd idea...lets wait until SoE fixes the defensive abilities before we start calling for sweeping changes to the class. You are basing balance ideas off broken abilities, and not even waiting for the abilities to be fixed. Its simply illogical.
Now that I got that off my chest, yes BS3 needs to be fixed...and I think we need an equiv to the scatter pistol, though I would like to see the scatter pistol stay BH only, and our DX2 get upgraded to the equiv of the scatter pistol.
Also, I would like to point out...I do agree with alot of what the BH's are saying about them having to do significantly more work to reach their Novice level. You guys discount it off hand, but think about it. They have to fully master two trees before they can even touch their novice level. We don't have to master a single tree, only get Pistol Spec and some extra pistol xp. Expect them to get some perks we don't, when they have to do all that work to become BH's. Then, to add insult to injury, their LLC (light lightning cannon) is a total piece of crap. I don't know a single BH that uses the thing, except for fun and to get xp in it hoping one day SoE fixes it.
Bottom line guys, why don't we try looking at things from everyones perspective before we start screaming for the nerf bat. We don't want this to become EQ and turn in to a giant nerf fest.
Niotma, read my last answer on the other post, we are not trying to have them nerfed. read all the post's going around, we are not trying to have them nerfed at all. We have mentioned that if their special missions are to difficult, uping their skills isn't the answer, tweaking the missions are.
we have told them that instead of screaming at us because we want our skills to reflect our titles, they should go back to their own boards and post to have the LLC or whatever it's called fixed.
They post over here, on OUR forum, that we are to powerful and try to post up number's, number's are inacurate since they honestly believe that things such as our BS3 and defensive skills are working properly, which they aren't but they don't believe us.
None of us has even mentioned nerf except for me and you, and I mentioned it before you on a post that said, to somewhat of this effect. "go back to your own boards and start posting to the dev's to have your own bugs fixed like we are, if you want to post fine, as long as it's something legit and constructive. Once both of our issues are resolved, then by all means let the nerf war's begin" If you call that me wanting to nerf BH, well then, it's your sour grape, not mine. But I haven't seen anyone post about nerfing them. Oh, I think there is one but it was a joke, the guy even admitted to it when he saw people took it the wrong way /shrug
Every so often when I am hanging out with my friend in game, I ask him how he is progressing towards bounty hunter. It is slow going (for both of us. I am trying towork on my Pistoleer tree)because we both work full time jobs and have lives outside of the game. That combined with the fact that he is a novice weaponsmith as well makes the going even slower because he must split his online time between crafting and killing. (just a short history)
To make a very long story as short as I can, we began talking about the differences between Pistoleer and BH solely from an experience point perspective. He is upset because it is going to take him forever to get up enough combat xp to even get novice bounty hunter. I agreed that that is unfortunate; combat xp is some of the hardest xp to work up in the game if you end up soloing or can only manage to get into small groups. After going over his skill tree, I pointed out that after he gets BH, he'll never have to worry about combat xp ever again, though admittedly I have no idea how hard it is to get BH experience for the investigation line. I then took a look at my future pistoleer tree and saw that I will, over the course of my career be required to get several hundred thousand combat experience points. I am not in front of my home PC now so I will try to remember the numbers. 60k for level 1, 80k for level 2, 150k for 3, and 180k for 4 (once again I have no idea how accurate these numbers are, am trying to quote from memory). I pointed this out to him and, since neither of us know the difficulty of getting BH xp for the investigation, we began to look at the differences and difficulties of progressing through each class in a different light. Now we both feel as if BH is a much easier class to progress through, since if you are in a group, you can get upwards of 1k of weapons xp per enemy.
We both look at combat xp very distastefully and would rather not have to worry about it anymore;this being said, I amambivalent as to whether or not I should continue my pistoleer profession or become a bounty hunter.
I am also curious as to why this issue has never come up before. Are my friend and I the only two people that find the progression of combat xp to be extremely tedious? I see the Bounty Hunters arguments that they should stay more powerful paling in comparison to the Pistoleers'. The pistoleers are (by the very nature of the skill tree that requires theenormous amounts ofcombat xp (can't think of it right now, am at work)) far more combat oriented in the fact that they are actually applying their combat experience to their skill as a Pistoleer, whereas bounty hunters toss their combat experience by the wayside after attaining novice. It's almost like comparing a real army regular to someone who only shoots targets on a shooting range. Thetargeteer who uses a shooting range primarily will have far more accuracy, but the ground pounding regular will understand where to shoot someone to make them fall faster or where to shoot to cause the most amount of pain or bleeding. At least that's my take on the situation, I am always open to having my mind changed.
Regarding Combat XP:
If you plan on becomming a master pistoleer you need not worry about how tedious combat XP is because by the time your ready formaster you'll have made enough combat XP to to fill all 4 boxes that require this type of experience.