Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Issues List...time to think of Whats wrong or What you would like to see. Updated 10/08
It looks like you mix up things. stateeffect is for example defense vs dizzy or kd .. stun... blind and intimidate. maybe you mean dots when you say states in States #3.
I dont think pistoleer should be the profession with even more dots bleed is nice and many profs have that. but if the combat revamp goes live to target the health pool will be very attractive again in pvp.
and about disarming... it would be more logical if it had something to do with make an opponent for short time unable to attack u know like to disarm. warcry would be the best and easiest to implement for this. dont let the poor developers work more than they have to.
Speed #1
Ham costs should be proportional to damage output or the multiplicator the special has you use. Speed is way too low at master pistoleer yes i agree but if we get ap2 we just need a bit more speed not waaaaay more dont forget the unbalance and the damn decay of our expensive weapons.
Defences #2 as i said we are no melee tanks and should keep the distance. let that be the melee profs like tkm or swordsman.
But a pistoleer should be the best ranged tank so only ranged defence is waaaaay too low. dodge is very nice defence but not enough for ranged tanking. our state defences (kd/dizzy/stun/blind) is very nice compared to other proffessions specially for a ranged proffession. i think this is ok as it is.
Damage Types #4 i totally agree with that point. but its the same problem with all other profs that there are only 2-3 weapons which are usefull this should change i think. however we have a nice selection of damage types just the missing ap2 is a big problem.
about our ranged modifiers..well thats a handy cap but we are the proffession who should fight at the nearest ranged of all ranged proffessions thats why we have the good state defences i guess. it would be too unbalancing if we could fight at the same distance a carbineer or rifleman is most effective.
Message Edited by shakaan on 10-21-2004 10:17 AM
copied this from another post. RandonB sums it up...
oh yeah, and DUEL PISTOLS....plz.
List of Abilities:
Health Shot 2: A health bleed. Initial health damage, followed by a health DoT. Major complaint is that it uses the same damage multiplier as all other bleeds, which are based on the damage of the weapon. Since they all "tick" at the same speed, our supposed speed advantage isn't there, but our damage disadvantage is maintained. The DoT damage is currently negligible, to the point that players find it questionable whether it is worth the attack round spent on firing it (depending on the expected length of the battle). Most pistoleers spam the crap out of this just for the initial hit damage, as it outperforms Body Shot 3 in every way.
Pistol Melee Defense 1: A melee range (10m) knockdown. No major complaints. Pistoleers report that they get a kick out of "pistol whipping" targets. It's very badass.
Pistol Melee Defense 2: A melee range (10m) attack. The knockdown is broken. Request it be fixed, and given an additional state effect such as Stun.
Disarming Shot 1: Low damage random HAM attack that deals x2 damage vs Lairs and Vehicles. This is considered broken. Request the Intimidate state effect, and possibly making it health targeted.
Disarming Shot 2: Same as Disarming Shot 1, but deals more damage and has a cone effect. Request the Intimidate state effect, and possibly making it health targeted.
Double Tap: A very low DPS random HAM single target special. There is no reason to use this at any point in a Pistoleer's life, as Kip Up Shot from Marksman outperforms it even at low levels. Recommend increasing the damage and giving it a chance to attack 2 pools.
Stopping Shot: A high damage, high delay attack. The DPS isbarely better than Marksman specials, and is not typically used by "pure" Pistoleers without additional speed from Bounty Hunter. Recommend giving it a Posture Change Down, so that it can actually stop a target.
Fan Shot: A random HAM cone effect special with high DPS. Pistoleers use this attack frequently.
Body Shot 3: A health targeted attack. Outperformed by Body Shot 2 until the Pistoleer is a Master with a 1.9 speed pistol. Recommend increasing the damage.
Point Blank Single 2: A point blank range, single target, random HAM special with ho-hum damage. Recommend increasing the damage and providing temporary defensive bonuses to justify the increased risk of firing in point blank range.
Point Blank Area 2: Same as Point Blank Single 2. Area effect broken. Recommend fixing the area effect, increasing the damage, and providing temporary defensive bonuses to justify the increased risk of firing in point blank range.
Multi Target Pistol Shot: Attacks all targets within a 32m radius. Problems are that it fails to funtion if there is a line of sight obstruction toone or more of the targets, clears the combat queue when this occurs or a target dies, and deals too little damage to be commonly used even in wide open spaces. Problems with this special are difficult to nail down, and may be unstable. To take advantage of it players have to get surrounded and stay that way, which is something Pistoleers try to avoid. For these reasons players seldom use it, instead opting to line up a good cone with Fan Shot. Recommend fixing the bugs, increasing the damage, and giving it a state effect or DoT.
Dodge: Pistoleers love dodge, especially now that it no longer stops us in our tracks when running. They would like a real running animation and an improved standing animation, as the first is nonexistent and the latter is, frankly, lackluster. In terms of dodging often enough, it seems to not kick in often enough when facing high level content, and should probably work a little more often across the board. Dodging is fun to do and watch, but only happens probably the minimum of what it should.
Melee/Ranged Defense: Simply too low. Both are dwarfed by professions that deal more damage, and the Ranged Defense is so close to zero that it may as well be.
State Defense: Not particularly helpful without stacking, as our opponent simply spams the special once or twice more. Recommend adding a 5-10 second immunity upon a sucessful save. With other professions slowing down in the CB, I would lean closer to the 10 second mark.
Accuracy: Most players agree that ideal range needs to become more prevalent in SWG play. Pistoleers have decent accuracy at 64m in PvE, but not great unless the Republic Blaster is used. In PvP testing however, Pistoleers found that they had only 67% accuracy when facing a moderately skilled defense stacker in Ideal Range (which we try to avoid because it is so easy to get beat up by melee characters). They feel that this isn't quite high enough to allow for a fair fight. Accuracy While Moving is of particular importance to Pistoleers, as they specialize in running and gunning.
Armor Piercing & Damage Types: Pistoleers have a disadvantage of being limited to AP0 & AP1 weapons. To make up for this, they were intended to have a wider variety of damage types. They presently have5 (energy, heat, acid, stun, and kinetic). Unfortunately, it is a challenge to find a high damage stun pistols, and an impossibility to find even moderate damage kinetic pistols. What's more, Riflemenare presently equally diverse indamage types, and have access to heavy armor piercing. It is the belief of Pistoleers that our supposed damage type advantage is not adequately making up for our lack of armor piercing. They feel that they are being unfairly limited in participating in high end content.
Speed: Pistoleers are not comparatively fast enough in SWG. Most attacks in the game fire at 1.x seconds, and our speed advantage simply isn't there. Our damage disadvantage, however, is in full swing. The speed equation itself is chiefly responsible for the system falling apart, and Pistoleers are overjoyed to hear that it is getting revamped in the Combat Balance. This is important because the exponential nature of the equation makes ita nightmare to balance. Slight changes at the end game simply make too much of a difference.
Combat Role Summary: The combat role of the Pistoleer is supposed to be low damage, high speed, high defense, short range, "run 'n gunner." Most of these have been obscured by one thing or another, and we would like to see it become a reality (presentlywe are low damage, low speed, moderate defense, same range as everybody). There is a strong desire to have state effects and interesting attacks. That feeling stems from the fact that if all our specials do is damage, our only recourse is to pick the special that deals the most damage and spam it. In regards to Range, there is a great concern that our Ideal Range (<= 20 meters) is inside the range of Melee Lunge attacks. We aren't a melee profession, nor do we want to be. If this is the range where we will spend the majority of our time, we are worried that we will be dominated by real melee professions. When our ideal range was decided pre-launch, melee attacks were substantially shorter. When they were extended, our Ideal Range wasn't.
Grouping Summary: Pistoleers see themselves as a player who can get into the thick of things, or back out when it gets hairy. If the tank falls, he's next in line. If the tank is there, he is partsupplementaldamage and part situational control. While the Carbineer can provide mass crowd control, the Pistoleer is more specific and calculating. At least, they'd like to be. In the current state of the game, they aren't a damage dealer, a tank, or a crowd controller. They do all of those things a little bit, but pretty poorly.
Top 5 Recommendations: Our top 5 Issues are listed below. This is also our list of Top 5 Things we'd like to see in the CB:
- 10 out of our 12 specials are redundant, inadequate, or broken.
- We have no state effects or interesting attacks. All we do is damage, aside from 1 melee range knockdown and 1 bleed.
- Our DPS is too low.
- The speed system used by the game is completelyscrewed up.
- Our defenses need help.
Top 5 GCW Recommendations:
- Faction specific pistols, maybe even with a little decal of the faction. Readily available, so it isn't considered out of reach by players who haven't yet picked up a faction, but might be inclined to if they see this pistol around. Something desirable enough to be used, and usable only to the specific factions.
- An animated deathblow. If there's anything in the mocap work that could be used or altered in some way, it would be great. I envision a Pistoleer standing over an incapacitated player, and putting a carefully aimed bolt between the eyes.
- Faction specific weapon powerup schematicspurchased from a recruiter, with a minor advantage over standard weapon powerups.
- Factional clothing/armor schematics with skill mods.
- Better factional equipment available based on rank. There is a substantial demand for rankto mean somethingin SWG, and this is one way for it totake shape.
Message Edited by Randonb on 06-12-2004 05:16 PM
First off, this is my view on Melee vs. Ranged profs, and where Pistoleer falls in that.
Melee = Tank, Damage Absorber. Mitigation, Toughness and Centre of Being make you incredibly adept at shrugging off high amounts of damage (although CoB increases avoidance, not absorbtion, I know.)
Ranged = Damage Dealer. Pure and simple, Ranged profs should suffer from lower defenses than a Melee-er, but balance that with higher damage output, both in terms of Damage-Per-Shot and Damage-Per-Second.
Pistoleers = Perfect blend of Melee and Ranged: "Ranged Tank." Deal more damage than a Melee-er (and have the kiting advantage), but not as much as a Rifleman or Carbineer. Significant difference between Melee-ers and Pistoleers is that, where a Melee-er just shrugs off damage, a Pistoleer is more adept at Avoiding damage in the first place. Avoidance rather than Absorbtion. Pistoleers should be specially designed to focus on one target at a time.
Now, keeping this in mind, my priorities for the Pistoleer revamp are as follows:
1. Speed
2. Damage Types
3. States
4. Damage
Speed... is obvious, no need to go over that again.
Damage Types... There have been proposals on other forums in regards to balancing armor that have suggested implementing a system where, for every special resistance your armor has, it has a counterpart vulnerability (eg. Special Energy Resists = Vuln to Kinetic, Special Heat Resists = Vuln to Cold, Special Stun Resists = Vuln to Electricity, etc.) So, the more special resists you have in your armor, the more areas you will be vulnerable as well. I think it's a great idea.
But how does this apply to Pistoleer Damage Types? Imagine that you're facing off with another player for a duel. He sees your Master Pistoleer tag, and is frantically thinking to himself, "What kind of damage is he going use against me? Will I need to switch to another suit of armor to resist him?"
The damage types in the game that I can remember are: Energy, Kinetic, Heat, Stun, Cold, Electricity, Entangle, Blast. As Pistol-wielders, we have access to all of those, save Cold, Electricity, and Entangle, if I remember correctly.
The fear of being vulnerable to one of the weapons in a Master Pistoleer's arsenal could very well be one of our greatest advantages. A MBH knows to put bleeds on his target whether they're effective or not, since they tend to cause his opponent an amount of stress and concern while he tries to fit /firstaid into his queue (possibly forgetting that bleeds are actually quite ineffective in the game at this time). Psychological warfare often wins the most battles.
Striking the fear of facing a Pistoleer's versatility and the good chance of being vulnerable to at least ONE of his weapons is a great thought in my mind. It's what makes me love being a Pistoleer, in spite of the fact that armor at this time is really only ever resistant to one or two damage types. But imagine if each special resistant was balanced with an appropriate vulnerability. Oh, we'd be feared alright!
States... If Pistoleers are supposed to be the epitomy of defense among the ranged classes, then any states we apply should be focused on avoiding damage. While a KD/Dizzy would be l33t, I'm not sure it's necessary or even appropriate for the Pistoleer. Pistol Whip is great for immobilizing your opponent for a few moments so that you can get into your ideal range and kite him for the rest of the battle. When he gets up, he'll either be forced to run after you spamming Lunge1, flail around like a melee-tanking idiot, or switch to a ranged weapon (at which point, a fixed Disarming Shot would relieve him of that as well). Basically what I'm saying is that I don't think Pistoleers need a KD/Dizzy, as uber as that would make us.
Instead of a KD/Dizzy, Let us keep Pistol Whip, get rid of Pistol Whip 2, and replace it with a Blind attack. Flare Shot (replacing Pistol Whip 2) Blinds the target, and Multi-Target shot can confuse and stun multiple targets with the sheer number of bolts fired.
I'm against an Intimidate attack, since that's a Brawler thing, and I'd be hesitant togive Pistoleers an attack that is as effective at reducing damage as a Brawler (who is primarily supposed to be a tank/damage-absorber, not a damage-dealer anyway). A Pistoleer may never deal damage like a Rifleman, and he shouldn't tank or absorb damage like a Brawler, but he should be a good blend of both. I think a Blind (reduce accuracy) and/or Stun (reduce overall damage output) would benefit a Pistoleer a great deal. A Pistoleer should last longer going toe-to-toe than any other ranged prof, but not as long as a Brawler.
Damage... I'm happy with the average damage-per-shot a Pistoleer deals atm. That doesn't mean I'm happy with the Damage-Per-Second, of course, since we need to have our Speed fixed. But I don't think we need higher damage-per-shot abilities, or to have our current attacks powered-up. Give us speed like we're supposed to have, and we're good to go in that regard.
In my mind, Carbines are Crowd-Control and States specialists. Their AOE KDs and Status effects make them the best ranged prof for limiting the amount of damage mobs can inflict. Riflemen are the damage dealers, pure and simple. Pistoleers are the diversions, the "ranged tanks," if you will. They draw the enemy's fire and, while not being as good as a Brawler at shrugging off damage, are better at NOT getting hit. I'd really like to see Pistoleers get something similar to a Brawler's Taunt abilty, so he can draw enemy fire toward himself and use his superior "Avoidance Abilities" to frustrate his opponents when they can't hit him. On the offensive, a Pistoleer should be specially suited to take on one target at a time, but weaker at engaging multiple enemies.
To Sum Up:
I. Pistoleer Problems
Fix Speed,
Make sure our Damage Types are effective,
Give us some State attacks that are defensively oriented,
Increase Damage-Per-Second, not Damage-Per-Shot
II. Pistoleer Roles
-"Ranged Tanks," defensively focused (avoidance, not absorption!) Diversionary, able to last longer in toe-to-toe battles than other ranged professions.
-Imo, Pistoleers don't need Ranged Defense as much as they need Melee Defense. If Pistoleers are to be "ranged tanks," then Ranged Defense won't help them that much. Considering the ranged modifiers carbineers and riflemen suffer at close range anyway, it won't help them that much. To a Pistoleer, a Rifleman at 60 meters should be one of the worst threats he can face. Closing that distance should be the challenge for him, but once he's within that 10m range bracket, good luck Mr. T-21.
Message Edited by RenKesson on 11-25-2004 10:12 AM