Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Issues List...time to think of Whats wrong or What you would like to see. Updated 10/08
DarthXadius
Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:04 am
#53
LordMaxx wrote:
I already have the current issues list that RandonB put together. And yes nothing much has changed. But I would like to hear from as many of you as would like to speak up about current issues you have with the pistoleer profession. I understand that most our specials are redundant and many not working as they should. Im trying to put together a master list of ALL problems. and prioritize them. And yes Dual Wield is on it.
Obviously Our speed is huge concern. and I agree and it should be a priority in the revamp.
The specials do need to be updated or possibly completely revamped.
To get a ton of state specials, we may end up having to give up something...same goes for damage types...we sacrifice power for damage types. But the speed formula has been messed up and has not been taken into account...
As far as other perks we actually have quite a few defenses in our favor with the state defenses and melee defense. But those should be balanced in the revamp also. How much defense should a pistoleer have? And what is the trade off?
So...States, Speed, Defenses, Damage Types how would you rank these in order of importance, #1 most important, #4 Least important.Message Edited by LordMaxx on 10-08-2004 09:40 AM
I think we should take pistols into consideration with the other ranged classes before requests are made.
One thing that made pistols unique, was the huge range of damage types. However, the development team added many new types to rifles, making them actually have 1 more than pistols by the time they were done if you count the various kinetic rifles that come and go. From a PvP perspective, rifles get more speed, relativly similar accuracy and AP1 stun weapon in pvp, only stun is a real consideration. Not to mention AP3 for PvE for the high end mobs.
I think the 3 ranged correspondants (BH and Smuggler might want to be considered here too) should combine efforts and define what they want their profession to be: should one profession have more damage types? Should one profession be more accurate? Should one profession be faster?
In my opinion, if pistols are to be limited to AP1, we need to have more damage types, and they need to mean something in PvP as well as PvE. In my opinion, pistols should be faster than carbines and significantly faster than rifles. Its crazy that rifles are faster than pistols at master - not to mention rifles target the most key pool for PvP, where pistols hit health and/or random.
So thats a big project in itself to define that. Once done, there should be attention paid to the mods and specials. Right now, pistoleer has 90% of its specials being redundant, broken and/or useless. If that is to continue, and BH or Smuggler is required for damage output, then perhaps specials should be added to target each HAM pool?
Lots of things that need to be fleshed out, but to start things off I think we need to define what prof is good at what, they should all be valuable.
Message Edited by DarthXadius on 10-14-2004 07:06 AM
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Squidwalker
Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:37 am
#54
LordMaxx wrote:
Alot of good ideas...it seems speed is the biggest burr in our saddles...where as we should be a speedy profession we need Bounty hunter to really make it happen...and even then a rifleman can catch us on speed. That is definitely a HIGH priority.
Next is basically useful attacks and by that I think we need state attacks. We need to make alot of our specials worth it...and make the otherside fear it! I dont know if disarming shot could actually disarm, that could almost be exploitable unless it was on a high timer...higher than KD...but I will mention it. Our role should be Very fast close ranged fighter. Enough defenses to make us not so easy meat to the melee'ers, and enough speed that our punch being lower doesnt hamper us too much.
I can only hope after this is said and done that in large scale PVP combat I hope to hear the remark..."Oh crap they have some pistoleers!" hehe it could happen!
Yes Speed is a big issue, but its not that we are slow, but that everyone else is to fast.
There is a simple solution to disarmingshot that I have suggested many many times. To simulate disarming the target, or in the case of TK, hitting their hands, just use the code for the combat delay that is already in teh game. Warcry and the smugglers already have this. And I don't care if smugglers already have it and we shoot pistols too. It's the best, easiest way to get disarmingshot to have an effect close to what disarming.
Zekk-
Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:11 am
#55
I noticed in the DW bunker that many of the NPC's are more vulnerable to cold and electricity the only 2 we dont have. Since we dont get high ap i think at least one of these damage types should be a factor, low defenses also.
BadgerSmaker
Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:28 am
#56
Acid is usually ok vs most, apart from the 100% acid resist Wraiths, they have 35% stun resist so get your Geo out.
Still not gonna do a lot of damage against them... thats why I have to rely on poison stacking.
As for Cold and Electric damage guns, yup, plus Kinetic.. Striker Pistols need a boost so that uber loot isnt needed. Blast as well...
Give us them all! 
LordMaxx
Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:22 am
#57
we need to rank them in order, because that is the way the devs want it reported to them
Its probably better to think on a grander scope for the combat revamp. Not just thinking of one or two specials that could be tweaked, but an entire revamp of our profession.
We dont really need specifics on how a special could work, but more likely a vision of what the pistoleer represents in combat.
When a group of hunters or PVPers are fighting another group of Mobs or PVPers what is the pistoleers role in that? What should his/her role be?
Ive already outlined where I feel pistoleer should go. And with the revamp coming its that and the ideas you guys present here, and the ideas of our 5 sandbox testers that will hopefully help the developers mold pistoleer into a great and exciting profession!
Its probably better to think on a grander scope for the combat revamp. Not just thinking of one or two specials that could be tweaked, but an entire revamp of our profession.
We dont really need specifics on how a special could work, but more likely a vision of what the pistoleer represents in combat.
When a group of hunters or PVPers are fighting another group of Mobs or PVPers what is the pistoleers role in that? What should his/her role be?
Ive already outlined where I feel pistoleer should go. And with the revamp coming its that and the ideas you guys present here, and the ideas of our 5 sandbox testers that will hopefully help the developers mold pistoleer into a great and exciting profession!
Shadowhand1
Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:38 pm
#58
So what exactly is our ideal role gonna be anyway? I have been a master pistoleer for what seems like forever now and I still don't know what it is we are suppose to do. And everyone time I read someone's idea of what we are suppose to do/represent it is always conflicting. Do WE even know what role we are suppose to fit into? How many roles can their possibly be? Because we certainly have alot of combat professions to give roles to. What strengths are we suppose to have and what weaknesses? How do these strengths and weaknesses compare to that of other combat professions?
I hear things like, "we are suppose to deal weak damage but we make up for that with speed". Alright so how does that compare to other professions damage output? Does it even out in the end? If so that would be stupid. So overall where do we stand in that?
As for state effects, carbineers have ALOT more than we do right now. Is that going to change? If we are to do state effects then do they keep theirs as well? Or do they get theirs taken away?
I also hear alot of people say we are and are suppose to be highly defensive. So we get good defenses against state effects and dodge, but is that enough? Right now they just seem to be nothing more than a tool for stackers.
If it were down to a rock, paper, and scissors concept, where would we fit in? What professions would we excel at fighting against and where do we fit in the "team"? If we are meant to fight close then do we fight better or just as good as one of the 4 melee professions that are also meant to fight up close?
I apologize for all the questions, I am just having trouble perceiving where exactly we should stand and what our niche should be. Afterall, you can watch alot of movies and read alot of books about gunfighters and they fit into many roles, perhaps too many. But this is a game, so where do we fit?
fishbrains
Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:32 am
#59
LordMaxx wrote:
I can only hope after this is said and done that in large scale PVP combat I hope to hear the remark..."Oh crap they have some pistoleers!" hehe it could happen!
Hey like some of my friends and I say on Sunrunner. We aren't afraid to bring the minimum damage. Pistol is like Psych warfare. We are not gonna kill you right away, but we will eventually wear you down. The grim knowledge that in 10-15 mins the pistoleer will take you down causes you to panic and flee. 
BadgerSmaker
Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:30 am
#60
OK, keep it simple eh?
1Defenses
2Speed
3 States
4 Damage Types
Thats how I see it. The most important is the ability to absorb damage, specifically ranged damage which Melee tanks have trouble with, this is the Pistoleer strength that I am most often called to employ in a group situation in PvE and PvP, I get sent in to get shot at basically.
Next up pistoleers need the speed, and that's at Master, not picking up BH pistols to cap speed, however I get by alright at the moment.
States next as its no good being able to put states on everything if you're slow and easy to hit.
Then damage types last, but this is taking into account the ones we have at the moment and we can scrape by with those.
I've already mentioned what I feel my role as a pistoleer is before... the ranged tank and shield.
If you want to fight Lord Nyax, DWB Wraiths, Corvette NPC's thenyou bring a pistoleer... in PvP the pistoleers go in first with the melee chars to soak up the damage, moving fast, attacking fast and putting states on everything.
Bladecenter
Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:32 am
#61
Before thinking of any bonus, we must think about other ranged profs.
So what i see for the moment ?
I see uber rfleman, with a lot of speed/accu, with lot of differents weapons, greats defenses, and all working specials. So, no defs Vs States. The only way to kill a rifleman.
I see a great carabiner in accu and specials, bad speed and weapons, bad defenses.
i see a forgotten pistoleer, with average defenses, bad speed, bad accu, good weapons, and pratically no specials.
I think that rifleman should be nerfed to : Bad speed, great accu, bad melee def, good ranged def, no states Defs. A Rifleman shouldn't kill a TKM or Fencer.
Pistols should become a great speed, bad accu, bad ranged def, good melee def, average states defs. A pistol should be capable to kill a Master melee fighter, in a duel.
Carbineer should be in the middle of these, but incredible Defs Vs Stats Resists.And they need new weapons.
So, i don't think that pistoleer needs some AP2 guns. We are light combat masters. We are moving fast, shooting fast, but not damage dealers. The only possibles damage dealers in SWG should be BH and Commando.
The most important i see, is to debug our professions. I'm really scared about our broken specials. Sometimes i don't understand why it's broken, after this time. We are the soul of SWG 
and we are not operationnal.
and we are not operationnal.So, Desperado ?
Can i do another master plz ? If i want to PvP with a gun, i have no choice. I must put all my skills points in BH, smuggler, fencer, or commando to become operationnal. But i cannot be as efficiencly as a rifleman in equal master.
MurienAquarius
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:53 pm
#62
We need to have our specials work properly, that definitely needs to be addressed. It is unacceptable to have specials that you can't use, or that don't work as well as the lower- end version (example: pistol melee defense 1 and pistol melee defense 2). I would rank our needs as follows:
1. Speed
2. Damage Types (AND we need something higher than AP1)
3. States
4. Defenses
This new combat system seriously needs to balance things. There is no way any non-jedi melee class should be able to own the pistoleer in short or medium range combat like they currently can. I am a Master Pistoleer/Master Fencer and I don't think I could outdamage a wet diaper when it comes to fighting melee stackers, or even some higher end PvE mobs. That doesn't make much sense to me. Blasters are MONEY, they are what Star Wars is all about. I loved Han Solo as a kid, and one of the first toys I remember having was the blaster with the scope on it (Power 5 pistol? I can't remember). I am not yelling for the melee classes to be nerfed, I just think things need to be level. I also think it is ridiculous that a journeyman pistol class like Bounty Hunter has more pistol speed than a master pistoleer. I don't care how many skill points it takes to be a bounty hunter, it is stupid that they would be a quicker draw than a master pistoleer (bounty hunters should get different tricks, like snares, traps, poisons, etc). I don't understand why a master pistoleer couldn't target someone's head, and use a head shot either. Anyway, I digress. I hope that this rebalance does define a specific role for all of the classes to play, making us all somewhat similar damage wise, but with different game- and role-play flavors.
shakaan
Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:56 pm
#63
to make it easy cause i hate long posts...
1. speed is fine as it is if u are bh xx4xbut think of the damn decay - i cant even use my uber-10's i build cause every shot with pu causes them yet to lose a few points of condition 
... but if the other changes would be implemented i listedi think non bh pistoleers would be ok if they get only a bit more of speed -- dont forget the damn decay.
... but if the other changes would be implemented i listedi think non bh pistoleers would be ok if they get only a bit more of speed -- dont forget the damn decay.2. not working specials:
disarming shot 1/2 - it should have a effect like warcry and delay the opponents attack for
a few sec. this would prevent dabbling in smuggler to get panic shot.
bodyshot 3 -should be a higher multiplicator than healthshot 2 has ... its just unlogical atm.
multitarget pistol attack -should have a higher damage multiplicator and work as it should.atm it doesnthit multiple targets...this would be our pve mass attack and could give us a chance against rifleman and swordsman who actually simplyoutdamage us. (also point 3 reccomend)
point blank area/single - is just a joke remove it and make the other specials worth it.
double tap - should have the state effect to dizzy a player and not a high multiplicator.
stopping shot - should as the name says stop an opponent in rushing into the pistoleer.
(no high multiplicator needed just like a state special)
fan shot - this attack should have the state effects stun and blind and a moderate multiplicator. and let it maybe target the action pool so we can deplete the specialattack pool of an opponent whenthe ham revamp goes live.
melee defense 2 - this one doesnt work atm and should have a better chance to kd an opponentthan the working melee defense 1 has.
3. we need ap2 -at least to be competive against rifleman f.e. who even has ap3 what would be ok if we simply had ap2.
4. melee and state defense is ok for a pistoleer who is a ranged fighter we should not be the meleetanks the meleeprofs are but we need more ranged defense to have a chance against higher ranged npc's so this could be our special territory if we not dabble in another defensive prof to get the recommend ranged defense.
also think of the ability for pistoleers to kite against melee profs we not have to stand and fight we just can keep distance.
i think these changes would make us stronger and give us our special sector in pvp and pve and not overpower us.
i would like to see pistoleers have also a abilty to have better chance against saberblock but that would unbalance the bh carbiners or rifleman so i hope saberblock will become nerfed against ranged and increased against melee profs cause its a joke that melee bhs are the only bhs who stand a chance against jedis.
and yes im seeing forward to this dual wield thingy cant wait to have it ...holsters and twirly moves too. but please put it in master box!!!!
shakan 
(Master Bounty Hunter/Master Pistoleer/Leader of the Mandalorian Death Squad/DWB Leader of Infinity)
Jedi Kill Count : 19 kills / 15 griefes 
***may the exploit be with you jedi ... not always***
Message Edited by shakaan on 10-20-2004 10:59 PM
Message Edited by shakaan on 10-20-2004 11:19 PM
shakaan
Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:25 am
#64
/edit
dont misunderstand me please. ranged defense is a joke at master pistoleer and dodge is by far not enough to fight against high ranged npcs or rifleman in pvp. we need a much higher ranged defensenot only a bit. something about 90 -100 then cap it with tapes or fs skills maybe. atm we not even have 10 ranged defense at master. rifleman for example has 72 ranged def at master. i think thats a point of disbalance and makes rifleman to the better ranged tank and notonly the best damage dealer at all.
to provide tactics and different styleswe should have the choice of different ranged proffessions but only rifleman to be good enough in pvp and pve.
also carbineer is a joke at all but thats the wrong forum. the onlygood ranged proffession atm is rifleman so everyone who wants to be the roxxor in this game choose it because specials working / a bit too high damage output cause of ap3 / decent speed (1sec/shot) when capped/ and a very nice overall defense but states which a rifleman dont need cause of concealment shot and the causing sniper ability.
BigLands
Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:42 am
#65
States #3
We don't really have any from pistoleer, though you can get them from BH and Smuggler.
I think we need to make a decision about what sort of states are worth having - bleeds are now useless and they used to be one of our core abilities before the nerf bat was brought to bear.
The question is, what states and why?
I'm of the opinion that disarming shot might work well as a sort of ranged intimidate or posture down attack.
Since we'remeant to be one of the most mobile profs, I'd suggest adding in state effects which slow the movement of our opponents down, thus accentuating our mobility advantage.
Speed #1
Speed needs to go waaaaaay up. As it stands our only hope of being able to do comparable damage to other profs is to be able to fire faster than them. I think pistols should also have very low HAM costs as well.
Defences #2
Simply put our current defences don't work. If we are to remain as 'defensive' fighters we need significantly improved defences. Specifically, we need a higher melee def, since we operate best at ranges where melee profs can engage us easily. I would say our state defences also need to improve.
Damage Types #4
We already have a goodly number of damage types - our weakness is in our lack of AP.
What's totally ridiculous is that our top of the line, master weapon, the DE-10is energy, the most often resisted damage type.
I would also question why both of our stun weapons are reduced range - as if we don't have enough going against us anyway
(On a side note there are a large number of pistols that pistoleers hardly ever use - D-18, DL44, DH17 pistol - I think these need to be made more attractive)